Amazing Grace For Our Partisan Times

 

Sarah Stewart Holland

We all have unearned aspects of our lives, both privilege and luck and general blessings being here and present on planet Earth. And to put that at the center instead of this us – them, hyperpolarized, conflicting environment, that was just everywhere.

Robert Pease (co-host)

That was one leg of Pantsuit Politics, Sarah Stewart Holland, co-creator and co-host of the prolific politics podcast out of Kentucky that has reached hundreds of thousands of listeners with candor, curiosity, and civility.

Beth Silvers

We try really hard to say, “This is an exercise,” not to convince everyone to agree with us or even to adopt our style, but to set an expectation for ourselves in terms of what values we bring into our political conversations.

Robert Pease (co-host)

And that’s Beth Silvers: the other half of this charismatic team. Pantsuit Politics has put out over 500 inquisitive, open-minded discussions at a time when those qualities are sorely lacking. I’m Robert Pease and this is the Purple Principle, a podcast about the perils of polarization.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

And I’m Jillian Youngblood, stoked to be talking today with a pair of women who handle all things perilous so artfully. Sarah and Beth are college friends who reunited in their parenting years with a podcasting mission. Six years later they’ve covered every major controversy – political, social, and cultural – without giving in to controversy.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

Let’s give trolling, canceling, and stereotyping the day off and learn how these pantsuited politicos infuse discourse with a bit of grace, starting first with Sarah Stewart Holland.

Sarah Stewart Holland

I mean, we really formulated the grace-filled political conversations as a subtitle to our book: I Think You’re Wrong (But I’m Listening). And we were trying to capture the environment we’d built over years at pantsuit politics where we do use the word grace a lot and in a real purposeful way to describe both what we hopefully achieve on a bi-weekly basis.

Beth Silvers

And I think the second part of your question really speaks to that goal because it is hard with the tenor of political discourse everywhere. But grace is often about giving it when you don’t receive it. And so we, we try really hard to say, “This is an exercise,” not to convince everyone to agree with us or even to adopt our style, but to set an expectation for ourselves in terms of what values we bring into our political conversations and what values we hold around, how to conduct those conversations.

Robert Pease (co-host)

So I’m curious, Beth, were there any— as you look back— formative influences on either your thinking or in the creation of the show on that basis, any particular authors or role models that you had in mind as you started the show?

Beth Silvers

You know, for me, it’s really the people in my community. An example that I bring up about my political past on the show occasionally is that I grew up on a dairy farm in rural Kentucky and Al Gore was not popular among the people we knew in agriculture because of changes that he was already rolling out to deal with climate. But the discussion about Al Gore in our households was never about him as a terrible human being, who we didn’t trust. And it was never even arguing with the objective of caring for the environment. Caring for the environment is a huge part of small family farming. It was more about whether policymakers at a 50,000-foot level could understand the impact that those policies would have all across the country in farms of all different sizes. And that is sort of the language that I wanted to bring to the discussion with Sarah and what I felt our opportunity was to just have a normal conversation about politics, instead of trying to be another example of your talking points versus my talking points.

Sarah Stewart Holland

Well, let me go all the way in the other direction and say Oprah as far away as you can get from the people in your everyday life. Because sometimes I wish she was a part of my everyday life. She’s not, but she was growing up. I watched over every single day, from the time the show started until it ended in my twenties— when I turned 40 this year. And what I learned, you know, growing, listening to her, which I think is, you know, really relevant and drives a lot of what I try to do on the show is that people have to feel heard. And really that what we are here to do is to connect with one another through listening through kindness, through relationship, and through conflict, you know, and I think that some of Oprah’s fame and power and sort of industry dominance came from the fact that she was willing to lean into hard things. 

[Audio Collage, Oprah Winfrey]

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, I keep asking Alison to book Oprah. I don’t know what the problem is, but we will redouble our efforts. So The Guardian had a very complimentary article about your show a few years ago and they use the phrase left-right conviviality which is very British, in a way. So is that still sort of the ethos of the show, has it changed at all? Have either of you moved around significantly?

Beth Silvers

It is not the ethos of the show anymore. I mean, I hope we keep the conviviality and I hope that people from a wide variety of viewpoints find a place with our community, but if you tune in expecting to hear a one person on the left, one person on the right, that is not where we are at this point. I was our host from the right when we began. I was never a great representative of the right, because I’m not a purist in my politics or anything else. And so that, that expectation was always taken very literally in a way that I didn’t meet well, even from the beginning, but I changed my party registration during the Trump era, because I just didn’t see in the Republican party, the values that made me a Republican initially, I think the party went in a very different direction from sort of a local decision-making/local problem-solving, which is why I was always a Republican.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yeah, well, that’s interesting. I mean, our audience, we think, are largely independent or unaffiliated voters. That’s, it’s a much easier thing to be in my state of New Hampshire than in many states. We have, you know, relatively open primaries, we have a huge number of independents. So I’m curious, Beth, did that tempt you at all to be independent or unaffiliated?

Beth Silvers

I would be independent if I lived in New Hampshire. Here in Kentucky, we have closed primaries and I think primary participation is too important to sit out. And so I changed my registration to be a Democrat so that I could continue to vote in primaries.

Robert Pease (co-host)

But I’m also curious, Beth, you know, I’m an independent, and never thought I’d be saying this, but if, if every sort of moderate, you know, rational, kind of science-based thinker leaves the Republican party, is that a good thing? Are we not left with a more radical, potentially dangerous party?

Beth Silvers

I think I will start with the premise that I think it’s really hard to know what moderate means here in 2021. There are so many issues where I think it is…where I would consider myself as having not a moderate viewpoint on criminal justice reform. For example, I’m quite extreme in my views about criminal justice reform. But then I have views that are probably extreme on other issues that would be thought of as more to the right than that. So I think moderate is a hard word, but I take your point that people who have some malleability, people who are interested in evidence versus sort of ideologues… I tried for a while to see my place in the Republican party. And I just couldn’t find it for now. And that’s hard. I wish that weren’t true.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

We’re with special guests today, Beth Silvers, and before her, Sarah Stewart Holland. They’re creators and co-hosts of the long running podcast, Pantsuit Politics, and they’ve been profiled by The Atlantic, The New York Times, and The Guardian, among other publications.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

And been guests on such well-known shows as Morning Joe. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

And speaking of TV talk shows, you could say Pantsuit Politics is a bit like The View in audio format. But a version of The View: not quite so on-high as the big-budget show taped in midtown Manhattan.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Sarah and Beth do both have law degrees, Sarah’s worked for major political organizations and Beth for a regional law firm. But they’re more firmly rooted in their Kentucky communities and interacting with their listeners, not as A-listers, but as facilitators on a range of messy topics.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Such as COVID and polarization.

Sarah Stewart Holland, previously recorded audio

I have a vaguely purple location and I hate that I even have to use “purple” to describe COVID because it doesn’t feel like it should be political, but, you know, it is. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Immigration

Beth Silvers, previously recorded audio

I really dislike immigration programs that are merit-based: this idea that we only look at people as economic engines and who will add the most to our economy.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

Gun violence

Sarah Stewart Holland, previously recorded audio

It is so complex, all the different components of what contributes to gun violence from just the most basic issues of, “We have too many damn guns!” to the complex issues, political issues like right wing extremism and white supremacy and toxic masculinity and all these things.

Robert Pease (co-host)

And global warming

Beth Silvers

We’re more comfortable than at any time in the history of humanity. And our comfort is what is preventing us from making real progress.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

Among many other equally fraught topics handled in a non-fraught way.  So let’s dig a little deeper into the refreshing— yet still informative— civility of Pantsuit Politics, starting with the show’s therapeutic value for listeners and hosts.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, again we were amazed at the fact that you’ve done 500 shows. When I think about doing 500 shows that, you know, I love doing shows, but it makes me want to jump off a bridge. So I wonder how many times did you have a bridge jumping feeling during that long run? And you’re still going or do you just so enjoy doing each one that you could easily do another 500?

Sarah Stewart Holland

I think what we do is almost a type of therapy. I mean, we had a listener describe us once as America’s political therapist. And so since we are both people who care deeply about the world and are interested in news and politics, it never feels like a chore to sit down and process that with another person. It always feels like it makes, sort of, my participation in the world easier. 

Beth Silvers

No bridge jumping for me. I think the hardest seasons of the podcast are when we are in an election season and there’s that forced dichotomy. And it reminds me that we rarely feel that way. You know, in most of our conversation, there’s a lot of room. It is not this or that. There are a variety of options. It’s about prioritization, it’s about trial and error. But when we’re in that forced dichotomy, I think that’s hard. And I think it dials up, everyone’s kind of worst political instincts.

Robert Pease (co-host)

All right. So obviously it’s hard to perhaps remember in great detail all of your shows, but iis there a personal favorite or two that you look back on, maybe you relisten to and is there also one or two that you’d kinda like to take back?

Beth Silvers

The take back is easy for me. We did an example of a debate kind of early on in our podcasting career, because we were trying to say, “What could a presidential debate look like if we, if we wanted to get people thinking afterward?” And I think that we accomplished that, but I also just felt icky while we were recording it. We wrote about this in our first book. We’ve had so many great guests, but, for me, the best conversations are when Sarah and I are really digging into something hard. I’m probably most proud of the work that we did around Brett Kavanaugh’s confirmation hearings, because I think that we were able to talk about how this was about so much more than Brett Kavanaugh. 

Beth Silvers, previously recorded audio

I guess first I will say I disagree with your characterization of all conservative justices, as people who are interested in chipping away at individual rights for the benefit of corporations…

Sarah Stewart Holland, previously recorded audio

I feel like Brett Kavanaugh is a partisan and that bothers me. 

Beth Silvers, previously recorded audio

Christine Ford was not the first woman and will not be the last woman to be sitting in a chair like this. 

Sarah Stewart Holland, previously recorded audio

I think the reason we don’t have a process like that is because this process isn’t for us and it never has been. 

Sarah Stewart Holland

And I think, you know, Beth stole my answer. I definitely think the Kavanaugh hearing episodes still rank as some of my favorite, but I think you see what we did there and other times, and I’m just really proud that we show up in a really raw and vulnerable way for our listeners when the moment is raw and vulnerable.

Robert Pease (co-host)

You often emphasize the importance of nuance, and I think there was a quip that was quoted in The Atlantic magazine that you “Set out to do nuance and the universe gave you Donald Trump.” So in an age of TikTok, is nuance even more difficult to convey to an audience that, you know, really requires some pretty extreme viewpoints and entertainment?

Sarah Stewart Holland

Well, let me just stick up for TikTok for a second here. I think that there is some incredibly nuanced complexity happening on TikTok. I think some TikTok creators can convey complexity in an amount of time that seems unfathomable to me. But I think that among our audience— who I feel like I know and understand intimately— there is always a much deeper desire for curiosity and understanding. And I think even beyond our audience— particularly in the face of COVID— that there is a sense that the world as we understood it has changed and that we are going to need to be a little more curious and a little less instantaneous in our judgments. You know, the one thing that I can bring all my family members of different political persuasions on board with is the idea that social media platforms have just disintegrated our political debate and that there’s more complexity contained within themselves than is portrayed on their social media status or profile pages. 

Beth Silvers

It’s tricky because I agree with Sarah, I think social media both harms our capacity for nuance and expands it. And it just depends on how you curate your feeds and what you’re looking to do on social media. So I never want to be a thumbs up or thumbs down on social media or even cable news, although I’m probably a little bit more thumbs down on cable news in terms of its overall effect, because I think that drive to constantly have something to say leads us to say the worst versions of the things we’re thinking sometimes. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, I think you have a great line in your first book, I Think You’re Wrong (But I’m Listening), something about we Americans changed from “You shouldn’t talk about politics,” to “You should only talk to people who reinforce your worldview.” Is that also going to be a theme in your forthcoming book?

Sarah Stewart Holland

Yeah, we just turned in our manuscript and we joked in the introduction that if our first book was called I Think You’re Wrong (But I’m Listening), our second book should be called I Still Think You’re Wrong: Now What? So I think that’s what we’re trying to get at is that sometimes compromise is next to impossible and we’re not going to reach some magic solution where we fix the issue, right? We have to develop endurance or resiliency in the face of this conflict in a multicultural democracy as big as ours. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

But in our system of government—you know, with the three branches with two major parties— isn’t compromise essential? Didn’t the Constitution assume that people could reach compromise and aren’t we in pretty deep water if we can’t reach compromise on the tough issues?

Sarah Stewart Holland

I mean, I would say though, that political polarization— when people speak about political polarization— there are not articulating societal disagreements about policy. Like that’s not what people are fighting about on Facebook, right? They’re not like, “Well, here’s my legislative proposal and here’s your legislative proposal and why can’t we just find some, you know, some compromise here?”, right? Like when we talk about political polarization in America, we were talking about cultural conflicts and societal conversations and absolutely legislation has to involve compromises, but the intricacies of those compromises that happen in congressional committees or between the White House and the legislative branch— that’s not what people are fighting about on Facebook. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, if you could give some advice to our listeners who are mostly independents— they’re spread out all over the country, but as you can imagine, there tend to be more of them in let’s say purple states that have open primaries— what advice would you give to them about how they can help the political conversation?

Beth Silvers

I think independents play a really important role. For me, a lot of the disagreement that is most fiery right now is a matter of language. I think if we sat down and discussed what the driving forces were behind the disagreement and found some new words: words that didn’t just shut people down or indicate like this is my team— so you can assume everything else about my agenda— we would be in a better place. And I think independents are well positioned to find those new words. 

Sarah Stewart Holland

I think the role of independents, who aren’t consumed with politics every second of every day or who don’t have expertise in the latest cultural conflict or news event, are needed because we need that perspective where they’re not passionate about something. So they can ask questions that need to be asked or point out holes in the argument or share just a perspective that sometimes gets lost. So, no; I definitely think that the role of independents in a political environment like ours, that is bifurcated and winner-take-all can really not be overestimated.

Robert Pease (co-host)

So we’re really impressed with how many topics you cover and curious how much research goes into being prepared to talk for an hour or so on multiple, difficult topics. Do you have some researchers helping you and how do you know when you feel like you have enough to take on the topic?

Beth Silvers

It’s a lot of research. We do it all ourselves. We have experimented with people helping us with research. And I just find that I don’t feel prepared unless I’m doing it myself because the types of questions that I ask and what leads me to a new article or down a new path… I just have to have that process on my own to feel ready to talk to Sarah.

Sarah Stewart Holland

And sometimes, I mean, a ton of it is driven by our audience. What are they asking questions about? Are they emailing us about what they say, what seems to be a pain point for them? And so that will really draw how much we’re taking in and what we’re paying attention to as well.

Robert Pease (co-host)

So Beth, can you think of a message or two that came out of the blue and ended up spawning a topic or a guest?

Beth Silvers

The message that stands out to me most in terms of community engagement is— after we did a series on 9/11— we tried to talk about what happened leading up to 9/1. What happened that day and how it changed our government? We had just kind of— as an aside in one of our conversations— mentioned structural aspects of the Twin Towers in terms of how they were struck and the fallout from it. And the very next day we heard from someone who was a thermonuclear engineer, who had reached out to say, “Let me tell you more about this. I’m so excited that you mentioned my area of expertise.” And it just reminded me that anything we touch on, someone is listening who knows a lot more about that. 

Robert Pease (co-host)
That’s Sarah Stewart Holland and, before her, Beth Slivers: creators and co-hosts of the long-running Pantsuit Politics podcast, grace-filled political conversation in our not-so-gracious era. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

But being from the South, I’m going to go out on a magnolia limb and suggest maybe that civility comes in part from their Kentucky upbringing and the importance of civility in their community. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

A fair point, Jillian, even if a dubious tree pun. So please cy-press any more of those.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

I’m groaning in the wind over here. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Fair enough. But not being from the South, and being a huge nerd, I’m going to suggest that Sarah and Beth intuitively understand what real dialogue is. And that was explained to us by  our previous guest Dr. Peter Coleman. He’s the  director of Columbia University’s Difficult Conversations Lab.

Dr. Peter Coleman, previously recorded audio

And debate is a type of communication that is really a game. And it’s about winning an argument. And so I listened carefully to you to weaponize your flaws and your logic and use them against you to win the argument. Dialogue in my field is the opposite. Dialogue is a space where you learn and discover, and you can learn things about your own position and attitudes and where they came from. You can learn things about other people and why this is important to them. And you learn that these issues are messy and complicated. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Which is interesting because Sarah and Beth once held a debate on their show, which they hated. Said it completely changed the tone and they won’t do that again. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Less debate and more dialogue in this final part of the interview, as we learn about Sarah and Beth’s home state of Kentucky and the extent of polarization there.  

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

As well as their travels around the country prior to COVID, on their Nuanced Nation Tour. 

Sarah Stewart Holland

In 2016, I ran for a non-partisan position on my city commission. I won the first time, I lost the second time and there was a massive increase in polarization and the way people treated city officials. One of the city officials I served with— who’d been on the commission for several years— spoke pretty frequently about how bad it had gotten because everything became nationalized; you know, you would knock on people’s doors for a non-partisan position and they wanted to talk about Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. And so I think that that nationalization of politics has really taken a toll on communities without a doubt.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, we don’t know the details, but we were struck that Kentucky has seemed to expand voting access when many states are working to restrict it, is that your understanding of that bill?

Beth Silvers

100%. And I think that is completely the result of divided government in our state. I think divided government has gotten us much better results, not just on voting access, but on any number of issues related to COVID-19. I am thankful everyday that, that we are led by the people that we are right now. We have a democratic governor and a Republican secretary of state, and they have worked very cooperatively. It has not been easy and it has not always been publicly smooth, but they’ve gotten some very good results on allowing more people to vote safely reaching, um, legislative proposals that will allow for expanded voting in Kentucky. Honestly, some accomplishments that I did not think were possible in, in our state Capitol, they’ve reached by working together more cooperatively.

Robert Pease (co-host)

So we’re interested in your Nuanced Nation Tour. I forget how many different cities you went to and you may have even passed through New Hampshire at that time.

Beth Silvers

I love visiting other statehouses. That’s one of my favorite things to do, and we’re out on the road and just really seeing how differently state government works across the country. I’ll tell you— to me— the most interesting aspect of visiting New Hampshire came when we were there for the primary: the presidential primary in 2020. And just realizing how relentless that process is for people who actually live in the state. Trying to find someone who was actually from New Hampshire became really difficult. Seeing how the media just takes over all of the places that should feel nice and relaxing for you and how difficult it is to avoid candidate signs. And you know it really felt like so much pressure. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

It is a little bizarre, the amount of push polls that you get when you, when you’re an independent here. So we’re just curious, you get a lot of feedback and input from your audience. What are people writing in about now? What are their concerns? Or is the level of concern possibly a bit lower than, you know, let’s say a year or so ago?

Sarah Stewart Holland

Right now, our audience is really consumed with sort of post-pandemic life: how to navigate vaccine conversations, risk assessment decisions as school returns in the fall or vacation opportunities present themselves, both as fully-vaccinated people with people in their lives with vaccine hesitancy. So I would say vaccines, vaccines and more vaccines is really what they’re thinking about.

Beth Silvers

And I do think on other topics, there is a little bit more trust in the decision-making process at the federal level than we heard, certainly during the previous four years, which is nice. But I also think our audience recognizes the tension that that doesn’t mean we should tune out and maybe everybody needs a breath and a pause, but then we need to get back in because something will come up that that is really important for your community, that requires your thought. It’s a long game. It’s not a come-for-the-disaster and then leave when things seem to even out a little bit.

Robert Pease (co-host)

That was Beth Silvers and, before her, Sarah Stewart Holland: creators and co-hosts of Pantsuit Politics, and authors of the book I Think You’re Wrong (But I’m Listening), which came out in 2019.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

And the forthcoming book: Now What?: How to Move Forward When We’re Divided (About Basically Everything) 

Robert Pease (co-host)

And Jillian, I think there are a lot of special elements at work with Pantsuit Politics. First, as you noted, the small town warmth, or as the Brits might say, conviviality.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

Yet with just a tiny bit of that magic Oprah dust…

Robert Pease (co-host)

Secondly, the obviously special chemistry between Sarah and Beth, friends for years prior to launching the show.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

They do disagree. Just not in the extreme way we expect disagreement today to sound.

Robert Pease (co-host)

And, third, in the respectful way they approach their listening community with those difficult conversations.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

Not to preach or convince. But to consider and discuss.

Robert Pease (co-host)

We encourage all of our listeners to consider sampling and discuss a few of the many Pantsuit Politics episodes and look ahead to their forthcoming book. Beth and Sarah are a breath of fresh, grace-filled air in our toxic times. But next time on the Purple Principle: man, are we headed in the opposite direction.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

From down-home civility to foul-mouthed Hollywood satire, we’ll be speaking with Veep showrunner and comedy writer extraordinaire, David Mandel, on his favorite Veep episodes and jokes.

Robert Pease (co-host)

And on Veep’s long-standing evasion of those truly toxic terms: Democrat or Republican. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

And, of course, the painful decision— really painful to me, by the way— to wrap up this popular and award-grabbing Hollywood classic.

David Mandel

The idea that we would have had a regular episode of Veep airing while – I’m just making this up – like the insurrection was going on, our show would have seemed like, well, why don’t we just take the show, these episodes, and throw them in the garbage. Like, there’s no point in airing. So on the one hand you, again, I hate to put it like this, you can’t compete. Like, your show just seems awful. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

We hope you’ll listen to that episode, look for our Patreon page coming soon, connect with us via our website and social media, and stay indie-minded in these polarized times. 

This has been Robert Pease and Jillian Youngblood for the Purple Principle team: Alison Byrne, Producer; Kevin A. Kline, Senior Audio Engineer; Emily Holloway, Digital Strategy; Dom Scarlett & Grant Sharratt Research Associates; Emma Trujillo, Audio Associate. Original music composed and created by Ryan Adair Rooney.

The Purple Principle is a Fluent Knowledge production.