The New Ultimate Mark: More Community, Less Injury, Same Sick Tattoo

Robert Pease (co-host) 

We’re on the sidelines of a recreational soccer league game in Brooklyn’s Prospect Park on a sunny Sunday in May. It’s 11 on a side, green team vs. the purple team.

Mark

Hey Teddy! Show them wider

Robert Pease (co-host)

People are sprinting to the ball, doing their best to win. It’s competitive but it’s not crazy competitive. Mainly, they’re just enjoying the game and the day. 

Mark

Get back, get back!

Robert Pease (co-host)

That goalie on the purple team there directing his defense, he’s a little more vocal than most of the other players. And he’s someone you might recall from our first season one episode a year ago.  

Mark

I have a full spinal fusion on my back. So there’s like this podcast that’s been following me for like two or three years. 

Player

What? 

Mark

I’m famous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Not sure about famous. But we did call him “Ultimate Mark” in that episode because of his deep attachment to another sport, Ultimate Frisbee. And because of the competitive identity he’d adopted to play Ultimate through a long list of injuries, despite having a fully fused spine from a high school injury. 

Mark

Yeah. So when I first started playing the sport, people would like, see me get hurt on the field. And they would say, oh no, like he can’t go back on. This is horrible. This is horrible, right? Over time, I kind of just developed this persona as the person who will get hurt multiple times per game. And it’s cuz, I mean, I just throw my body around when I play. Like, I do what I can to win and if it hurts me, but it helps the team, it’s worth it in my mind.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

But now Mark’s off the ultimate field and into the soccer goal with a different identity and different attitude towards both competition and injury.

Mark

If I got hurt, take a step off the field and be done.

[Theme Music]

Robert Pease (co-host)

This is My Body Odyssey, a show about the rewards and challenges of active lifestyle. I’m Robert Pease and today we’re featuring chapter 2 of Mark’s Odyssey, very different from chapter one. Mark is still a young, highly fit guy in his early thirties who still loves to compete. So how was he able to shed that ultra-competitive identity he brought to the Ultimate field for so many years?    

Mark

So the soccer community I play with here, they don’t know that persona. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Mark also loved the culture of Ultimate Disc. That was one of the things he described most passionately in our first interview four years ago at the Boston Invite Team Disc tournament.  

Mark

Uh, I, I dare you to find a better community of athletes anywhere in the world than the Ultimate Frisbee community. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

So how has Mark been able to move on from that community? We’ll be speaking with two expert guests on these questions. Esther Gokhale of the Gokhale Method- she’s educated thousands of people, including many doctors and PTs, on the importance of posture and balance in avoiding and managing injuries. 

Esther Gokhale

He’s clearly very into his sports and I happen to be very familiar with these two sports.

Robert Pease (co-host)

And Dr. Michele Kerulis of Northwestern University. She’s a respected authority on athletic identity and community, both the positives and the negatives. 

Dr. Michele Kerulis

Yes, there’s definitely a very significant attachment, an emotional attachment, a physical attachment to the community.

Robert Pease (co-host)

A lot to catch up on this second episode with Post Ultimate Mark. We’re especially excited for this episode because we’re bringing on a new co-host here who’s not new to the show. Brittany Thomas has been reporting and producing for the MBO since last season. Doing a great job. That’s why it’s such a thrill to have you here as a co-host, Brittany. 

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

Hey Rob. Thanks so much. I’m really excited to be here. I know we have a great group of stories coming up for the rest of the season, so I’m excited to listen to those and share them.

Robert Pease (co-host)

So Brittany we’ve got chapter two of Ultimate Mark coming up today. What do you remember about chapter one of Ultimate Mark? 

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

Ultimate Mark… He’s definitely a man with a fiery love for his sport. I remember he has an incredible pain tolerance. And he likes art as well. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

He likes to compete in art. 

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

Yeah. Especially when it comes to making neon signs. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yeah. So kind of a competitive guy. That’s what’s so interesting about this episode. Mark has been able to move beyond that a little bit. And find a more sustainable approach to sports and competition. Which was not an easy thing for him to do. To understand why, let’s go  back to Mark’s childhood years to see how important sports have been to him throughout his life, including the first sport Mark played with great intensity. That was not Ultimate Frisbee, it was soccer. The surprising thing, Brittany, is that in playing goalie in this rec league, Mark’s actually going back to the sport and the position he left behind in high school due to back issues. 

Mark

I grew up in a small town in upstate New York. Not a lot of people kind of a place with more, more cows than, than humans. I grew up very competitive. I had two sisters that were just as competitive as I was and, uh, our parents always pushed us to be, you know, the best we could be at sports.

Robert Pease (co-host)

In Mark’s family, you had to do well in school in order to play those sports.

Mark

Uh, I was a class clown, which might be obvious. And, uh, but no, I, I, I studied really hard and, you know, I was like still usually top of the class in, in things, but very much of the class clown attitude, trying to make really sports with the things I love the most. And I just knew that to play them, I needed to do well in school. So that was kind of the trade off.

Robert Pease (co-host)

But later in high school, Mark developed the scoliosis he described to us in season one. 

Mark

I had like a 12, 13 degree curve, which is like, more than average, but it’s not that bad. Um, and then when I was in high school, I fractured a vertebrae in my back, um, kind of below the bad part of my scoliosis. And then things just kind of like started growing super fast, right? So things kind of, so I went from a more straight not straightish spine to, I think I had like a 62 degree curve on the top and like a 55 degree curve on the bottom. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

That led to a major spinal fusion from the vertebrae T1, basically the top of Mark’s back, all the way down to L3, which is almost to the base of his back.

Mark

I think there’s like 14 or 15 screws in there now, um, fully fused. Uh, you know, it was a six to eight month recovery. I, being the total masochist apparently that I am, after two months, I like begged my parents to drive me to the high school track nearby. And I tried running and I went maybe 20 feet and then collapsed on the track in pain.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Soon after that, Mark decided to quit soccer, not so much because he couldn’t play. But because he couldn’t play nearly as well.

Mark

So like I lost all of that ability. I lost a bunch of my own speed. So playing at the level that I wanted to play at, for, you know, collegiate sports, just was not an option anymore. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

And you can imagine, 18 years old, that opened up a real void, which he soon filled with the sport of Ultimate Disc or Frisbee. It was only because of his athletic talent he even had the option of playing Ultimate, or any high intensity sport, with a spinal fusion. And at the time, Ultimate seemed less physically demanding than soccer, or at least college-level soccer. Plus it was okay with his medical team.

Mark

They were like, you know, try to just avoid contact sports. So, and by contact sports, they meant like football. Um, I had asked about basketball and soccer, all these things, I like playing with my friends. And they said, that’s fine as long as it’s not like high impact, like high speed stuff. So Ultimate did become a, a more viable option. 

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

I’ve seen a lot of Ultimate, and with all those frisbees whizzing around, it definitely seems like a high intensity sport…

Robert Pease (co-host)

It is a high intensity sport. And there’s a lot of incidental impact. Mark may have underestimated that, which we’ll hear more on. But he was thinking, ‘My ego’s not invested in Ultimate. So I can play it more casually.’

Mark

Yeah, so I, I think part of my decision to, to leave soccer was… I’m very competitive, as I had said, right? The idea that I had put all this time in, I had spent 15 years of my life, like, perfecting this craft, and then I was immediately gonna be so much worse. So that was kind of what drove me to pick up Ultimate also was like, it’s a sport I’ve never played. Um, so there, there’s, there’s no potential for me to like, not be as good as I’ve ever been because I’ve never played before, you know?

Robert Pease (co-host)

But it wasn’t long until Mark was just as competitive with Ultimate as he had been with soccer until he essentially became Ultimate Mark. I’m thinking about some tape  from the first episode when Mark’s competing with his girlfriend in art projects. 

Mark

Recently I started picking up neon bending. So like, you basically, you know, you stand over a flame with like glass tubing and you make neon signs by hand. And it’s awesome. And my girlfriend and I have turned that into a little bit of a competition. So the competitive nature doesn’t leave there either, because we’re always down to see who can make like the better 90 degree bend relative to the other…

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

From what you were telling me, he still seems pretty competitive out there on the soccer field, right? 

Robert Pease (co-host)

He does. He is. But here’s the thing. It’s way more balanced than a few years ago. And we think that may be because of a really painful incident playing ultimate his last season.

Mark

Uh, yeah. No, I was just playing. I was, I was, I was playing and just like a really, really shocking pain after a dive. Um, a ultimate dive. So like a, a much more painful dive than a soccer one. But, um, yeah, and I just, I just kind of couldn’t go anymore. And I realized like, this time I’m just not gonna even try again. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Mark went to his Doctor and the x-rays confirmed the long term degeneration that often follows a spinal fusion. In our season one episode, Dr. Mohamad Bydon, a Neurosurgeon at the Mayo Clinic, explained what can happen over time to the discs just below and just above a spinal fusion.  

Dr. Mohamad Bydon

Now, the other thing that people should be aware of is there’s something called adjacent segment disease, where people can develop problems at the lower or upper levels. It’s not unforeseeable that  as the years go by, he’ll begin to develop problems, and a decision will have to be made on extending that fusion.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Spinal pain is also a whole other species of pain. So intense. Dr Mark Stoutenberg of Temple University, he talked about this in Mark’s first episode and also the need to make lifestyle changes.

Dr. Mark Stoutenberg

And so it’s kind of a trade off. And I don’t think our younger selves really understand what being 50 and having chronic back pain is like… 18 years old, massive spinal fusion, you know, I, I just hope people at that point would say, you know what, I gotta change my lifestyle. We don’t want to, but I think we have to change our lifestyle, get in the pool, do low impact exercises, find other ways and understand that our path in life is changed. And it’s hard to do, really hard to do.

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

It’s really hard to accept limitations at a young age. So… due to the fusion, and also the wear and tear of Ultimate, Mark’s deciding to leave that sport and head back to the soccer field. But isn’t the sport he decided to leave when he was 18?

Robert Pease (co-host)

It is and it seems counterintuitive. But that’s where that spinal pain comes in, telling him that he can’t play Ultimate anymore. We spoke with Esther Gokhale, the widely consulted expert on posture and biomechanics. She has an explanation for why this decision makes sense for Mark. 

Esther Gokhale

And I happen to be very familiar with these two sports. You know, all three of my children played both Soccer and Ultimate Frisbee. And Ultimate Frisbee was at a very high level. So I really know that sport from having watched it a lot. It is no minor sport to switch to from soccer.

Robert Pease (co-host)

She explains how the quick directional changes of a frisbee might actually induce more collisions and thus more injuries than a soccer ball.

Esther Gokhale

Because in soccer you don’t know where the ball is gonna be passed to. But many of the motions are predictable. And then once the ball is in your possession, you have control over what’s going on with it. And with the goalie, it’s less. So you’re leaping and jumping and so on. So there is unpredictability there, but still it’s much more limited than what you meet in ultimate Frisbee, where you’re colliding with a lot of people and so on.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Esther understands why Mark made this move back to the soccer goal he left behind in high school.

Esther Gokhale

I do think a goalie, soccer goalie has less to contend with than an ultimate Frisbee player playing full throttle. So I think that’s correct calculation, but he’s still at risk. 

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

It’s like Mark’s body has been telling him for years, please, take a break. But after the spinal pain, seems he finally had to listen.  So it must have been so hard to say goodbye to his team and friends

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, yes, except he hasn’t really had to say goodbye.

MIDROLL

Mark

I think that one great thing about the ultimate community is that I didn’t actually leave it. So this actually took me a really, really long time to figure out. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

After that spinal pain, and the x-ray reports, Mark  tells  his Ultimate friends  he just can’t  face another season. 

Mark

And it’s like, it was a big bummer and I was reaching out to say like, I worry that all of you people are gonna like, leave me behind or that we’re not gonna be together anymore. Because like, the thing that bound us together was like this sport, right? Um, I was really grateful because so many people, former captains, former co-captains that, you know, led teams with me, you know, like they immediately were calling me up and saying, dude, like, we met because of Ultimate, but like, we are not only friends because of Ultimate, right?

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

So once he realizes that his friendships aren’t at risk, he’s able to step away from the game.

Mark

So I’m not playing as much as I used to, but I think that it took a few months and a lot of conversations to get to the point where I realized like, I’m still part of this and all of these people that I had, I still have, right? And this community that’s so weird and wonderful is still there and they’re still weird and they’re still wonderful.

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

And that almost makes me want to play Ultimate, even with the risk of concussions. But it also defines the bigger reasons why so many people play competitive sports in the first place, long after high school and college, and maybe long after they should. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Not just for individual ego or exercise…

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

…Also for that social dimension. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Which is huge and not so well understood. So we reached out to Dr. Michelle Kerulis at Northwestern University for a better understanding of the power of athletic identity and community.

Dr. Michelle Kerulis

I am the Director of Community Engagement and Faculty at the Family Institute at Northwestern University. I am also a fellow of the American Counseling Association and the Association for Applied Sports Psychology. And I am the mental health consultant for the U.S. Soccer Federation.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Dr. Kerulis teaches, writes and researches on issues of sports identity and community. She also advises young athletes through her clinical practice.

Dr. Michelle Kerulis

Yes, there’s definitely a very significant attachment, an emotional attachment, a physical attachment to the community. And that is definitely something that I’ve heard throughout many different kinds of sports. It’s just, you cannot find a place better than my group of athletes. They are absolutely amazing. So I think that shows another positive aspect of sport. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Positive, until your body starts to say otherwise.

Dr. Michelle Kerulis

But on the negative side, again, if there is an injury, if there is some reason why you have to be separated from only that community, then that leaves a really big hole in somebody’s heart and their soul. And when they focus all of their attention there and suddenly it’s ripped away, that’s where we start to see some really severe mental health issues that could arise. A really significant depression, potentially, including some really difficult types of grief experiences that someone might have being really just ripped away from their friends and their teammates.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Mark’s situation today is probably not that  extreme. He’s not a division one college athlete with so much invested into the sport. He’s in his early thirties, he’s got his professional colleagues. But Ultimate was clearly a lot more than a game for him.

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

So it wasn’t just competitive fire that kept Mark out there through concussions and broken bones. It was also that need to belong to something bigger.  

Robert Pease (co-host)

And Esther Gokhale confirmed that, in her family’s experience, Ultimate is an usually cohesive community.

Esther Gokhale

You know, Ultimate, like, like Mark has noted, you know, these people still are gonna be friends with them. And my kids to this day, they’ve retired from their sport, but they get together with people who they used to play with. If they go visit a new town, they’ll stay with these people. So it has a really nice community, um, spirit. And, uh, I could go on and on about that. 

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

So, Rob, how’s Mark doing in his new community of soccer? Is he staying healthy out there? 

Robert Pease (co-host)

So amazingly, he does seem to be injury free, so far. And, equally amazing, he seems completely ok with that. 

Mark 

Um, I haven’t really had any major injuries, oh, knock on wood, you know, um, over the last, the last year and a half or two years I’ve been playing here… It’s more like we’re playing, we’re playing for a couple months at a time together and having a good time. So I don’t, like, partially, I think it’s that, I don’t know if it’s as worth me risking the injury now, because I don’t know if the reward is as high as it would’ve been otherwise. But I think also in part, I just don’t really love being sore at work on Mondays anymore.

Robert Pease (co-host)

That’s a different identity or personna from four years ago when we first met Mark at that Ultimate tournament in Boston

Mark

Yeah. I’m injuries is as hell… Uh, I could name, it’d be easier for  me to name something. I haven’t injured really. Just in the past few months I’ve broken my wrist, multiple concussions… 

Robert Pease (co-host)

But Mark may have anticipated this change when he spoke to us about a year and a half ago. This was after not playing much Ultimate during the COVID years. It was just after his first practice in the spring of what would be his final season.

Mark

Umm. I’m, I’m horrible now. The amount of the, the rust that was coming off, I, I looked like I looked like a, like a 1950s old car. Like just every single step I took. You could physically see the trails of rust coming off of me. It was, it was wild. 

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

So in just a couple of years Mark’s has made a transition that many weekend warriors might make over a decade or more. Not in their early 30’s but years later…

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yup. It is kind of remarkable. And  Mark’s soccer teammates, they actually know very little about his spinal fusion. Except possibly about the zipper tattoo he had drawn over the surgical scar, which he described to them during the pre-game warm up.

Mark

My back, yeah. My tire back is fused. When I was 18, I got surgery. It’s like I show you the scar later. It’s sick. I I showed you the tattoo on top of my back. It’s like a zipper. It’s like a zipper that leads into the whole scar.

Player

Wow.

Player

You get that off surgery?

Mark 

Yeah. I waited like three or four years to make sure I didn’t need to get surgery again. So didn’t like cut the tattoo open. And then I got the tattoo over the top of it.

Robert Pease (co-host)

So except for that surgically placed tattoo, Mark’s soccer community only knows Post Ultimate Mark, not the Ultimate Mark we interviewed four years ago. And Mark seems to like it that way. 

Mark

Um, and in fact, actually, I mentioned that I was gonna be doing this interview again. Um, none of them even knew I had a back injury, um, in, or not none, but I’d say like maybe half the people I play with right now didn’t even know that I had this surgery or this severe back injury at any point because it just doesn’t come up because I, I’m just not getting hurt as often. So I think, I think that,  I think that right now, the persona’s been hidden and I don’t think, I don’t think it’ll come back out, and I hope that it doesn’t, but, um, I guess we’ll see if, if it ever does.

Brittany Thomas (co-host)

That’s Chapter Two in Mark’s odyssey: The college-bound soccer athlete who became an Ultimate weekend warrior, and now, a really good recreational soccer player. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

He seems to have settled into a healthier, more sustainable relationship with sport and competition, but does yell out a bit more team instruction than your average soccer goalie. We’ll be following Post Ultimate Marks’ soccer odyssey and hoping he can stay injury and pain free, even if that means giving up the occasional goal. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

But next up on My Body Odyssey, another in our occasional series of expert odysseys, this time  with one of today’s expert guests, Esther Gokhale. Like Mark, she suffered from severe back pain while in her twenties and pregnant with her second child. A first back surgery didn’t help. Her decision to avoid a second surgery led her to develop the Gokhale Method, practiced by thousands of people nationally and internationally to avoid and heal injuries, and now the subject of a Stanford University study.

Esther Gokhale

But what I would credit our method with is finding a very efficient pathway from where people are in modern cultures to where we need to go. And that pathway has been honed over the past three decades to not cause flare-ups along the way and reduce risk, and to carry people as quickly as possible out of pain to a higher level of function. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

We hope you’ll join us for that episode, tell a friend or two about My Body Odyssey and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. We’re always open to feedback here and suggestions. You can send those via our social media or our website, my body odyssey.com, Thanks for listening from the whole team here at My Body Odyssey, which is a Fluent Knowledge production. Original music by Ryan Adair Rooney.