Lone Star Launch Pad for Rear-Guard America?

 

Lawrence Wright

Texas is taking over the country. And you know, the politics have been spilling out of Texas for a long time so whatever happens in Texas is the future of America. 

Robert Pease (host)

Lawrence Wright is one of two special guests this episode. He’s the Pulitzer Prize winning author of The Looming Tower and also God Save Texas, a cautionary homage to the Lone Star State. Very few authors as versatile as Wright in the U.S. today. But there might be one just down the street from him in Austin, Texas.

Stephen Harrigan

It’s a fascinating mystery why this place, which should be 17 different states, manages to cohere as one. 

Robert Pease (host)

That’s Stephen Harrigan, Wright’s neighbor and good friend. He’s the award winning author of The Gates of the Alamo, one of the most widely read Texas novels, as well as a super-sized but palatable history of Texas, Big Wonderful Thing. 

This is The Purple Principle, I’m Robert Pease. And welcome to the fifth episode in our mini-series on Texas identity.  A privilege to also welcome New Yorker staff writer Lawrence Wright:  

Lawrence Wright

You see people coming to Texas because of what they perceive the identity of Texas being, and, you know, within weeks they’re wearing hats and boots (laughs)

Robert Pease (host)

And longtime Texas Monthly contributor Stephen Harrigan:

Stephen Harrigan

You come to a place and you see, see the power of its iconography and its imagery, and you don’t want to turn your back on that necessarily. It’s not all toxic as some people believe.

Robert Pease (host)

Wright and Harrigan were fated to collaborate as they have on many screenplays. Born in the same hospital in Oklahoma in the same year, they’ve been Austin neighbors for decades and seen an awful lot of change.  So let’s get their take on the state of Texas state identity—traditionally proud yet folksy, pretty loud and yet neighborly—starting off with Steve Harrigan. 

Enter Interview

The Changing Landscape of Texas

Stephen Harrigan

Well, I think it is, it’s being diluted a bit by just natural occurrences. Like, you know, lots of people moving here and different kinds of people with different expectations of what this state should be or ought to be. And what you see, I think with, particularly our state government, feels to me like a rear guard action trying to defend that traditional Texas identity against, against a surge of different views and different opinions about what Texas ought to be.

Lawrence Wright

Yeah. We also have to point out that a lot of people coming here are tax refugees. So they’re identifying with the tax code more than with the identity.

Robert Pease (host)

And you’re, specifically, maybe of people coming from California or New Jersey or high tax states like that?

Lawrence Wright

Yeah, yeah. In many respects, wonderful. You know, we’re getting a lot of great people, moving to town. They’re entrepreneurial, they have money. They want to be philanthropists. You know, I’ve been very impressed with so many of the people that I met. And you know, the truth is identities, you know, there are many different identities, Austin has an identity that is sort of contra-Texan, and people come to, move to Austin for that. you know, Midland is an entirely different identity, El Paso, San Antonio. I mean, all of these places within Texas have their own identity.

Robert Pease (host)

Yeah. Well, Stephen, your book actually starts with the waving cowboy image and you say it’s no longer possible for any image to express the colliding identities Texas has become. So tell us about a few of those important identities from your perspective.

Stephen Harrigan

Well, from my perspective, what’s so fascinating to me is, here you have a state of, you know, almost 30 million people, you know, something like, I think 280,000 square miles, you know, a place that has forest and sea coast and plains and prairies and mountains and deserts. And there is this still strangely binding force that keeps everyone, in Plano or in Galveston or in El Paso or in The Piney Woods, feeling like they all belong to the same place.

Robert Pease (host)

Yeah, and Lawrence in your book, you said that “Texas is at once the most super-American of states and the most indigestible,” but there does seem to be some digestion going on. Is that Texas digesting national politics or the country digesting Texas politics?

Lawrence Wright

Texas is growing so fast. It has been for decades, but by 2050, which is not that far away. you know, Texas will be, instead of nearly 30 million people, it’ll be 50 million people. It’ll be, you know, it’ll be more than that, it’ll be the size of New York and California combined. 

The Political Shadow of Sam Houston

Robert Pease (host)

Well, before we get to the future of Texas,  I’d like to go into a little bit of the history. Some of the amazing characters individuals that Texas has produced over time. And, most of our listeners are not in Texas, so perhaps not as familiar. But I’d like to start, if we may, with Sam Houston, who is a fascinating character at a pivotal time in history. Stephen, let’s start with you since you write extensively, about him in your book, Big Wonderful Thing. 

Stephen Harrigan

Well, I said in the book, on Interstate 45 in Huntsville, there is a 67-foot high statue of Sam Houston that you definitely can’t miss. And I make the point that it’s not out of scale. He has a towering presence in Texas history. I would argue probably he and Lyndon Johnson are the two most significant Texans in that sense. And, you know, Houston was the former Governor of Tennessee who left the state under strange circumstances to say the least when his wife abruptly ended their marriage. And he ended up living among the Cherokees and being called by them “Big Drunk.” He sort of re resuscitated his career by coming to Texas as a protege of Andrew Jackson. Ended up winning the battle of, or leading the Texian forces that won, the battle of San Jacinto in April of 1836, which made it possible for Texas to gain its independence from Mexico.

He was the President of an independent republic. He was the Governor of a subsequent state. He was the Senator from that state. He lost his governorship because he refused to sign the oath declaring for the Confederacy. And so he’s had this umbrella-like effect over much of Texas history. And though he’s a complicated character, with all sorts of shading, as all historical characters are, he’s much revered today, still in the state and every Texas governor in his or her heart still believes that they’re the reincarnation of Sam Houston.

Lawrence Wright

(laughs) Not true. And they don’t live up to that. I have to say…

Robert Pease (host)

Well, he seems like such an independent sort of maverick type of individual that would be so refreshing today, but could he survive a political primary at any level?

Stephen Harrigan

(laughs) It’s interesting. He would make quite a show of himself if he were running for office today. And it might, it might possibly—Larry, I mean, you may have a different opinion—but it might possibly transcend polarization. There’s only one person, I think, in Texas who truly transcends political polarization, and that’s Willie Nelson. 

Lawrence Wright

Yeah. 

Stephen Harrigan

And I might put Sam Houston in that potential category.

Lawrence Wright

Yeah. It’s certainly true that Willie is a transformative figure, and he’s not had a very much effect politically. And he goes down to the capital every time there’s a session and promotes  legalization of marijuana. And his clothes are all made of hemp. But it hasn’t transformed Texas into a pot-available state yet. But Sam, I think he really set the tone for Texas politics. At the bottom of that giant statue that Steve mentions is a motto, Sam Houston’s motto, which Steve you can correct me if I get it wrong, but: “govern wisely and as little as possible.” The first part of that admonition hasn’t always been obeyed, but governing as little as possible is a guiding mandate for most Texas politicians.

Exit Interview

Robert Pease (host)

We’re talking with the noted authors, longtime friends, and longtime Texans Lawrence Wright and Stephen Harrigan. 

An interesting point there from Lawrence Wright about politics spilling out of Texas for a long time. That certainly rings true in terms of the many Texas politicians who’ve made the move to Washington, D.C., and some to the White House. Three recent U.S. Presidents within the past 6 decades, possibly more to come as Texas grows in population and influence. 

The past is often a prologue. And if that’s the case, we better learn a bit more about those Texans who’ve risen to national prominence. Coming up, Stephen Harrigan on the first Texan who rose to leadership in the post war era, Sam Rayburn, U.S. House Speaker for almost two decades.  

Enter Interview

Independent-Minded Texas Politicians

Stephen Harrigan

A fascinating character, he came from, from nothing really, and leveraged himself up to one of the most long standing and powerful people in Washington. And a very lonely figure, a very poignant figure, because he was unmarried, he was childless. And I think there was a kind of father-son relationship that he and Lyndon Johnson had that, when you read about it, makes you feel just the human warmth there, that exists below the, the kind of cold calculations of politics.

[Archival Audio – Sam Rayburn]

Lawrence Wright

One of the things about Rayburn, I think, is that his colleagues always recognized that he was the best. He was elected to the Texas House Speaker  at a very young age. When he was campaigning, he had an opponent and he came from Brinham [Bonham] Texas, a little east Texas town, and they would campaign together! They would drive around. Steve, was it, were they in a buggy? They had a car, I guess. But they would, they would ride around. They formed a friendship that lasted for the rest of their lives. But they, that kind of civility in politics is totally absent of course now. But that’s the kind of person Sam Rayburn was. 

Robert Pease (host)

Yeah well let’s talk about a very different kind of Texan: Ross Perot. Interesting figure, most successful, you know, independent presidential candidate, a billionaire, not a big NAFTA fan. Tell us a bit about Ross Perot.

Lawrence Wright

What really intrigued me when he ran, and I covered his campaign, you know, people hated, they still do, many people hate Texas for what it stands for. And what they perceive it stands for is, in Dallas in particular, after the assassination there was this sense of authoritarianism, of a kind of top down management style, militaristic, bombastic. All of those things were the very things that caused people to like Ross Perot! It was weird to me to see the world turned upside down by this elfish man who seemed to know very little about government, but he had total confidence that he could take care of anything. And, his office was like a museum of American patriotism. It was a fascinating place. He had the picture of the, you know, the revolutionary war, the drum and fife, he had one of the Gilbert Stewart Washington portraits. He had the original maquette of the Lincoln Memorial. He was a super Patriot. And I don’t know, I found myself being very fond of him, although maybe I didn’t treat him as nicely in my story as I should have.

Stephen Harrigan

What’s interesting to me about Perot is that he was a political outsider that paved the way for people like Donald Trump. Like Larry said, he was sort of plain spoken. He said whatever was on his mind. And he was a lot more prepared, I think, in a way to be president than Trump was, but he created that space where people were curious about him.

[Archival Audio – Ross Perot]

Robert Pease (host)

Well, let’s talk about Ann Richards then. Very charismatic figure, great speaker, kind of a populist Democrat. Texas was largely a Democratic state up to 25 years ago. Pivoted rather quickly. Ann Richards  did not come from a political or privileged background, and yet was elected Governor.

Stephen Harrigan 

I think she was an inspirational figure to a lot of people. You’ll get different opinions about how effective she was as a governor and what her legacy as a political figure was. But her legacy as someone who inspired women in particular all over the state and all over the world, I think, is rock solid. And, she was, you know, all you have to do is go to the Democratic Convention, where she, you know, gave that keynote speech and you get a sense of her humor and her presence and how powerful a figure she loomed as in the imagination of so many people.

[Archival Audio – Ann Richards]

Lawrence Wright

Well, you know, she was… George Bush beat her, even though she was popular. People liked her, but they decided they’d rather have Bush as governor. And  the way she got elected in the first place, she was running against this west Texas oil man named Clayton Williams. A real good old boy in the classic mold, said unbelievably stupid things about, you know, making jokes about rape, for instance. And all of that was like, we know who that kind of guy is, it didn’t really weigh against him. But what killed him was there was a debate between Ann Richards and Clayton Williams. And, so they meet and Ann sticks out her hand and says, “hello, Claytie.” And he refused to shake her hand. That’s against the Texas code. His poll numbers plummeted, and he lost. And I’m convinced that was a turning point because it just crossed a line with a lot of Texans. You may not agree with her, but you do not refuse to shake a lady’s hand.

Robert Pease (host)

Yeah. Well, let’s talk a little bit more about that Texas code. Is it still as strong? What other types of, you know, behavior does it entail? Because from the outside, we do see, you know, a lot of pretty extreme rhetoric coming out of Texas.

Lawrence Wright

Yeah.

Stephen Harrigan

You see a lot of extreme rhetoric, but the reality of living here I think is different. Texas is still a friendly place to be. It’s not, you know, we have our issues for sure. But there is, I think, still a kind of core of civility here, just like in the rest of the country.

And yes, Texas has a different historical identity based on the fact that it was an independent nation for almost 10 years. But it is… if you came here and you had never been to Texas, and you were expecting people walking around with guns and riding horses and all the cliches, you would be stunned, I think, by how normal a place it is.

Robert Pease (host)

Yeah. Well, you mentioned George W. Bush did defeat Ann Richards for governor. And there’s an interesting study in there somewhere of bipartisanship, if we’re understanding correctly, the relationship between George W. Bush and Bob Bullock, the powerful Lieutenant Governor at that time.

Stephen Harrigan

He was a character and he was, you know, not as balanced a personality as Texas has sometimes been blessed with. All over the place, you know, had a habit of pulling out a gun every now and then at inopportune moments. But very pragmatic and saw something in Bush that he liked. And so the two formed an, you know, an odd bedfellows partnership that really paid off. They had a good working relationship. They coalesced around issues that made sense to both Republicans and Democrats at the time. And, you know, they were both recovering alcoholics. And they were, I wouldn’t say they were soulmates because I think Bullock was a lot weirder than Bush was, but they were, but they had a good working relationship that I think probably benefited Texas in the long run.

Lawrence Wright

No one doubted that Bob Bullock was devoted to Texas and wanted the best for it. 

[Archival Audio – Bob Bullock]

And that got him through a lot. I mean, he had five wives, he had a terrible drinking problem, the arrest, you know, he pioneered the bad politician and the political lifestyle that should have taken most of the politicians out of office. Bob floated above all that somehow. And I guess one thing you’d have to say about the Texas identity is we cherish our political figures, even the ones that go totally nuts. 

Robert Pease (host)

Well, a couple of other, more recent figures that we thought were quite interesting, one of whom will be a guest on the show, Congressman Will B. Hurd has a book coming out, representing the border region, trying to promote some solutions to the stalemate on immigration reform. And also Joe Straus, Speaker of the House, more of a moderate Republican, who kind of read the populous direction, decided not to run. 

Lawrence Wright

You know, I know both of those guys pretty well, and I’m sad that they’re not in politics right now, because I think that’s the direction, you know, the moderate centrist of either party is, is the direction that Texas really needs to steer toward. And the fact that neither one of them feels that they can occupy an office in Texas right now is a damning critique of the direction that our state has taken.

Stephen Harrigan

Yeah, it’s a real tragedy ‘cause both those guys are smart and talented and committed and balanced in a way that we just don’t see in Texas politics right now, in Texas government.

Exit Interview

Robert Pease (host)

We’ve just gone through a short list of the Texas politicians who became national leaders in recent decades as Texas transitioned from complete Democratic to complete Republican control.  

During this same period, Texas has become a stronger economy and recently attracted a number of California based companies including Tesla, Oracle, and Samsung. That bumps up against the slogan “Don’t California My Texas”, which is just a bit hypocritical coming from the office of Governor Greg Abbott, since that administration courted those companies. There’s also thousands of individuals moving to Texas every week, in part because of low taxes and good jobs. We asked Wright and Harrigan about all that influx into a fairly traditional place. First up, Lawrence Wright.

Enter Interview

So How About that Modern Texas Identity?

Lawrence Wright

There’s no question that they’re changing the state, and in many ways for the best. I mean, you know, it’s stunning to me with all the people moving to Texas that our unemployment rate stays so low, and that’s because jobs are being created faster than people are moving here. And a lot of those jobs are, you know, immigrants from California. There’s no question about it. We see their logos all in buildings downtown, and you could see the physical representation of that migration is very evident to everyone in Texas. I was talking to an entrepreneur, one of the tech guys who’s moved from the Bay Area and very successful Silicon Valley creator. And he said, ‘you know, we failed California, we failed San Francisco. And I just hope we don’t do the same thing in Texas.’

Stephen Harrigan

I think the phrase “Don’t California My Texas” is part of that rear-guard action of defending the Texas identity. At the root of it, I guess, is a fear from Governor Abbott and others that Texas will just become another place. That won’t be unique, that it won’t have this colossal, you know, self identity. And so, you know, California in their mind is, you know, who knows what it is, but it’s almost an arch enemy of the Texas identity. 

Lawrence Wright

The idea, you know, Texas and California have always had a kind of seesaw relationship. When you mentioned, you know, 30 years ago Texas was Democrat, well, and California was Republican. Ronald Reagan was governor, you know, these states move in relationship to each other. So there is a kind of, and it’s fascinating, you know, that we live in a country where you have two states that are so different politically and yet, so fluid that, you know, they’re constantly in flux. Eventually California will become more conservative, I’m convinced, and Texas will become more liberal. 

Robert Pease (host)

Well, let me ask then about Lawrence, your former neighbor there in Austin, Matthew McConaughey, his more serious thought about running as a passionate centrist for governor. Ultimately decided not to. But I wonder, would someone like that who obviously has a following, obviously telegenic, and obviously authentically Texan, would he have a chance as a passionate centrist in Texas?

Lawrence Wright

I thought so. Governor Abbot has been governor a long time and he’s made a lot of mistakes. The, you know, the horrible storm that we had last year, more than 200 people died, you know, the grid failed. We came within a fraction of having the grid entirely fail to the point that it would take months to restore it. You know, I said, if there’s one thing that might knock off the immigration to Texas, it was drought. Well, also the failure of the grid if Texas actually came to a stop in terms of providing energy, which we almost did. Now Matthew, he’s smarter than a lot of people give him credit for. What he’s devoting himself to now, he calls himself the Minister of Culture.

Stephen Harrigan

He doesn’t just call himself that, that’s his actual title.

Lawrence Wright

Actual in what sense, Steve, I mean…

Stephen Harrigan

It’s an official title at the University of Texas.

Lawrence Wright

Okay. All right. Well, is there a uniform?

Stephen Harrigan

No, there’s not a uniform and, and he’s very serious about it.

Lawrence Wright

I know he is. I know, I thought it was a joke. But he wants to make sure that Texas retains its identity in the onslaught of new personalities moving into the state. And I think there’s always been that sense in Texas that we’re gonna lose who we are. Like, remember when we moved here, Steve, the motto of Austin was “keep Austin weird”. And you know, there were bumper stickers and t-shirts and stuff like that enjoining people to be weird, which they didn’t need a lot of encouragement. But what Matthew is trying to do is try to instruct people to hang on to the things that make us distinct and that add a sense of community to our culture.

Stephen Harrigan

Matthew McConaughey was very interesting, particularly in the early days of the pandemic, when he did several PSAs, you know, public service announcements, about how to make a mask out of a bandana. 

[Archival Audio – Matthew McConaughey PSA] 

Stephen Harrigan

And he did a telethon, or a fundraiser, for the victims of the storm. And he is one of those figures, possibly, who could fit into the Willie Nelson category of someone who could, who could bridge the divide between left and right.

Finding Purple in Texas

Robert Pease (host)

Well, Stephen and Lawrence, that brings us to our last question, which we ask all our guests, which is to show a bit of purple and name one prominent Democrat, and Republican, either living or from recent memory, that you think could help bridge the divide.

Stephen Harrigan

I think we’ve talked about two of them, and, I’m hoping their political careers are not over, which is Joe Strauss and Will Hurd. I mean, they’re both Republicans, and I’m mostly a Democrat. But I feel like they, to me, are voices of moderation and sanity, which is what Texas needs more than anything. 

Lawrence Wright

I’ll mention two. One was George W. Bush, who was an excellent governor and governed in a bipartisan state. Both the Lieutenant Governor Bob Bullock and Pete Laney, who was Speaker of the House, were Democrats. And they endorsed him for President. It was a period of civility in Texas. And, George was a serious governor. He did an excellent job. And I’d like for him to be more vocal now. He still has authority. He represents a Republican Party that seems to have gone down with the ship. And I’d like to see him be more vocal about Texas and what it means and where we should be going in the future. The other person I would offer is Lady Bird Johnson. She was a fascinating woman, given little credit during her lifetime.

But you know, during the Johnson Administration, she was the architect of many of the most important bills. And, you know, her love of wildflowers and so on is very much reflected in Austin, and we have the Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center. There’s so many things that she touched and she brought into the consciousness of Texans about their environment, about the need to preserve the things that are beautiful, and to beautify the things that are not. And she was in some respects ideal in her role as the First Lady, and also as a significant figure in Texas.

[Archival Audio – Lady Bird Johnson]

Stephen Harrigan

I think what Larry and I are both pining for is someone who can lower the temperature. Someone who can place civility and temperament thought above political advantage. And there aren’t that many that, I mean, I’m sure there are a lot of people out there…but there aren’t that many that spring to mind in this political environment that we have now.

Exit Interview

Up Next: A Post-Polarization Reboot with Will Hurd

Robert Pease (host)

That was Stephen Harrigan there, and before him Lawrence Wright, both bemoaning the loss of moderation and civility in Texas politics, as in the nation at large.

We learned a lot about Texas in this discussion. Lawrence Wright turned around our question about national politics affecting Texas identity by pointing out Texas strongly influences our national identity. Meanwhile Stephen Harrigan emphasized the rear-guard action the current GOP leadership in Austin is taking against social and cultural change. 

It’s a huge, fascinating, and influential place worth watching and further listening. So we’ll be talking Texas and national politics again in our next episode with former Congressman Will B. Hurd, the CIA agent who became a three-term moderate Republican congress member from traditionally Democratic and largely Hispanic, South Texas district. A successful legislator and technology expert, Will Hurd has a list of important recommendations for his state, his party, and the country in his just published book, American Reboot. 

[Look Ahead Audio – Will Hurd]

Will Hurd

When you look at it, every industry needs workers. Every industry is looking to hire, guess what, streamlining legal immigration would help with that problem.

And so we have a real opportunity to benefit from what I call the “brain gain from” all these other countries and get them here. It makes sense. It’s good for our country. And this is one of the things that has made America so great and made us the place that so many people want to come.

Robert Pease (host)

We hope you’ll join for that next episode with former Congressman Hurd. He’s a breath of fresh, pragmatic air in our polarized politics. We also highly recommend his book, American Reboot, just out from Simon & Schuster.

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, connect with us on social media, and review us on Apple Subscriptions or ratemypodcast.com/purple. This is Robert Pease for the whole Purple Principle team, with special thanks, as always, to our composer Ryan Adair Rooney for the original music.  The Purple Principle is a Fluent Knowledge production.