Voice of Reason for Independent Minds

 Michael Smerconish 

I’ve been paying attention for the last 30 years and during that time period, progressively,  the country has been driven into a partisan ditch.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

No folks, you’re not listening to a show on CNN or Sirius XM…

Michael Smerconish

Although there are many factors that I point to at the top of my list, definitely a polarized media… 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

…But you are listening to Michael Smerconish, CNN and Sirius XM host and commentator. He’s our special guest this episode and one of the most articulate, well grounded, independent voices in American media today.

Michael Smerconish

It poses a great danger to the country.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

Join us today with Michael Smerconish on the Purple Principle, a podcast about the perils of polarization among consumers and conveyers of media.  I’m Robert Pease.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

And I’m Jillian Youngblood co-host here and Executive Director of Civic Genius, a non-partisan civic engagement group.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

Civics will be on the agenda today. Meaning, the loss of civility, moderation, and compromise in our politics, national and local. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

First off, we want to learn about Michael’s previous lives prior to taking up the mic on talk radio, such as his precocious run for office in Pennsylvania back in the mid 1980s when he was still a law student…

[Enter Interview]

Running For Office At Age 24

Michael Smerconish 

So when I was 23, 24, it was 1986. I should do the math. I guess I was 23 when I announced and 24 by election day, but I ran for an open seat in the Pennsylvania state legislature. I ran in central Bucks County, Pennsylvania, which is the community where I was born and raised. And in a multi-candidate field among Republicans, I lost the primary by 419 votes. I like to say that I’ve since located 236 of those people, which makes no logical sense, but always seems to draw a laugh.

Robert Pease (co-host)

So did you actually go door-to-door and, and hand out pamphlets and things?

Michael Smerconish

I did. At hundreds, if not thousands, of doors I knocked on during the course of, I guess, winter months and then spring of 1986. And it was just an extraordinary experience for me. It really helped me gain insight into people, what makes them tick, learning the lay of the land in my neighborhood. I was in that era involved in a number of different political campaigns. I always tell younger people who solicit my advice, get involved in a campaign, pick a candidate, pick a side, doesn’t even matter which it is, but go work for someone who’s running for office, because you’ll learn about the community in ways that you never recognize. And you’ll also learn just about geography and neighborhoods. And I joke, you know, my wife and I have raised four who, without the benefit of GPS, I’m convinced couldn’t get a mile beyond our house. But I don’t feel that way because I, I still look at a map of southeastern Pennsylvania in particular, according to political battle lines.

Robert Pease (co-host)

And you were also for many years a practicing lawyer. We’re wondering how that informs you as you interview legislators, and also your time working under Jack Kemp in the George H.W. Bush administration.

Michael Smerconish

So the time that I spent working as a lawyer, it was a 10-year time period post serving in the Bush 41, Papa Bush, Administration. I was a plaintiff’s lawyer. I was a trial lawyer. I stood in front of juries when I was working in that capacity for a decade, and there was a legendary Philadelphia trial lawyer that I worked for named James E. Beasley.  

[Archival Audio #1 – James E. Beasley] 

Michael Smerconish

The Beasley name is a big name in trial circles still to this day in Pennsylvania.

[Archival Audio #2 – James E. Beasley] 

Michael Smerconish

And that too was a wonderful experience. I think the combination of running, albeit unsuccessfully, for office and getting in front of people and then trying cases and being on my feet for a decade prepared me well for the sort of things that I do today. I mean, I’d like to think that I learned from the trial experience that not only does one need to speak well to be in front of a microphone, but they need to listen. Sometimes I’m not the best listener. And I think that’s an area of improvement.

Recognizing Polarization of the Media

Robert Pease (co-host)

So Michael,  you’re a prominent journalist and anchor, but you’re also critical of the media. We’re thinking about your speech last year at the Reagan Library entitled “It’s Time to Change the Channel”, which we’d play a cut from:

[Archival Audio – Michael Smerconish speaking at Reagan Library] 

Robert Pease (co-host)

So could you tell us how you’ve observed the media contributing to polarization?

Michael Smerconish

So, thanks for recognizing that speech. It was September of last year, it was a big honor for me. I put a great deal of time into what that speech would, would sound like, what it would consist of. And you’re right, the title was “It’s Time to Change the Channel”. And through personal anecdotes and some data, I tried to explain that I’ve been paying attention for the last 30 years. 

I mean, I look at an episode like we had very recently, where Ted Cruz made a statement about those who were involved January 6th in the, whatever you wanna call it – riot, insurrection, the attempt at overthrowing the election. And Ted Cruz had said that he regarded them as terrorists.

[Archival Audio – Sen. Ted Cruz] 

Michael Smerconish

And there was blowback, including from conservative media outlets. And he found himself soon thereafter truly groveling in front of Tucker Carlson because of that comment. And I came on the radio the following day, and I said, there it is, that’s Exhibit A, for everything that I’m talking about in terms of who holds the real power in this country. It used to be held by political figures and the head of the RNC or the DNC. But today, real political power is held by people who hold down cable news programs, or have access to terrestrial radio or other airwaves.

Leaving the GOP in 2010

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yeah. Well, you mentioned that in 2010 or thereabouts, you broke with the Republican Party and became an independent. And, there’s certainly been, you know, many Republicans in recent time who have, uh, made a similar break, but you were ahead of the curve. So, tell us what was going on in the world at that time and what led to that decision?

Michael Smerconish

Well, what led to my decision to, it’s easy today in 2022 to say, well, that’s not the party in which I came of age. But going back, you’re right. It was 2010 in my case. I guess I would explain it this way. My parents were Republicans. I was raised in a Republican household. I followed in the footsteps of my parents and was very comfortable in the party and very active in the party all through the Reagan years and thereafter. 9/11 was a seminal event for me, I didn’t lose anyone in my family or in my immediate circle, but the county in which I was born and raised lost more on September 11 than any other Pennsylvania county, because that county, Bucks County, was commutable to New York City.

And I was initially very supportive of the “W” War on Terror and the way in which they went about it. I had mixed feelings about Iraq, but along the way became convinced that we had taken our eye off the ball, and that the mission now was something totally different. That it really was about nation building and instilling democracy in the Middle East, which it never should have been. 

And now we were through the 2000s and headed into the ‘08 cycle. And I had the opportunity to interview Barack Obama, not one but several times. In fact, there was a particular dialogue that I had with him in the ‘08 campaign where we talked about what happens if he’s hiding–he, Bin Laden–in Pakistan. And Obama said to me, well, I would, I’m paraphrasing, but I would disregard their sovereign status. If I had the shot and he were in Pakistan, I’d take it. And of course we all know what history then held for Obama and Abbottabad and what ended up happening. But it was really the pursuit of the War on Terror that led me to finally decide, in ‘08, I’m voting for Barack Obama. 

First time in my life I had voted for a Democrat running for President. Now the next choice was, am I gonna tell people what I’m doing? Or should I keep it to myself? Because it was a very unpopular decision, given that I was then a morning drive, terrestrial AM talk radio host. But I made it very public. It became very controversial. I stayed as a Republican. And then two years later, in 2010, I decided, you know what, it’s just not the party that I was raised in.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yes. And that was just about the time that the Tea Party came in. So did that election, the tenor of that election….

Michael Smerconish 

Definitely. Definitely. And one of my mentors and someone who was a close friend of mine at that time was United States Senator Arlen Specter. And Specter was, you know, on the cusp of his party change in that same era, ultimately then lost in the Democratic primary for the Senate after he switched parties. But the way in which Specter was treated, when he would go out and do town halls in that era, I thought was despicable. 

[Archival Audio – citizens speaking at Sen. Arlen Specter’s town hall] 

Michael Smerconish

It was also at the same time when, I hope I have my cycles correct I think I do, when Mike Castle, who was a guy that I’d always respected in the neighboring state of Delaware, an independent Specter-type Republican, runs for the US Senate and is beaten by a witch. What was her name, Christine O’Donnell. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

I forgot about Christine O’Donnell!

Robert Pease (co-host)

I don’t think Marjorie Taylor Greene forgot about her. 

Michael Smerconish 

<laughs> Right…

[Exit Interview]

Robert Pease (co-host)

That was our special guest today Michael Smerconish making reference to the 2010 Tea Party candidacy of Christine O’Donnell, which in hindsight, predicted a lot of populist things to come. With no previous legislative experience, O’Donnell defeated the moderate, nine-term Republican House member Mike Castle in that Delaware Senate primary, though later losing in the general election.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

And, Rob, I feel like I’m podcasting from 17th century Salem. But let’s clarify Michael’s witch reference there by saying, yes, during that Senate campaign, there were questions about O’Donnell and witchcraft.

Robert Pease (co-host)

That’s correct Jillian. This particular cauldron began to bubble after the talk show host Bill Maher released footage of O’Donnell from his show Politically Incorrect.

[Archival Audio – Christine O’Donnell on Politically Incorrect]

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

Ending with her memorable campaign ad denial of sorcery, set to elevator music: 

[Archival Audio – Christine O’Donnell campaign ad]

Robert Pease (co-host)

Of course, all Monty Python scholars know how you really determine a witch. 

[Archival Audio – Monty Python]

Robert Pease (co-host)

But witch, warlock, or just plain ideologue, that surge of Tea Party Republicans was a huge precursor to the election of Trump and Trump loyalists, and further erosion of the civic minded political center. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

You could almost say a spell was cast over American Politics back in 2010. Our guest in the last episode, Tom Nichols, author of Our Own Worst Enemy, also spoke to this point… 

[Archival Audio –  Tom Nichols]

Tom Nichols

Well, I think the center is always a hard place to be, because it’s not dramatic enough. It doesn’t provide enough psychic income for people on the edges: on the far left, on the far right. The fringes are attractive because they’re dramatic and heroic, and they give meaning to your life. And that’s when you can say to yourself, “I’m not just working at a department store. I am uncovering pedophile conspiracies,” or, you know, “I am not just the assistant manager of a retail outlet. I am solving social justice and creating a new world of equality.”

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Are the extreme voices in the public square driving not just moderate politicians out of Congress, but moderate citizens out of civic life? We’ll ask Michael Smerconish. He’s interviewed hundreds, possibly thousands of elected officials, changemakers, and swing voters in his three decades in the media.

[Enter Interview]

Divides in the Public Square?

Michael Smerconish

I think that this, this nasty tone, which used to be national, and then maybe on a state politics basis, has now seeped into the local discourse, all the way down to school board or local municipal elections. I think there have been a number of nasty exchanges at school board meetings pertaining to masks or vax policy.

[Archival Audio – Parents at School Board Meetings]

Michael Smerconish

And they’re probably driving reasonable people right out of the discourse. For example, in the K-through-12 public school environment that I was raised in, the school district where I was educated, recently they had one of these meetings that got out of control.  And because he said that he was now subject to death threats, one of the school board members, got out, resigned. I worry about who will replace him. Who are the sort of people that, in this climate, are going to wanna be a part of the process?  I mean, I think we’re probably drawing the fringe types into the arena and that the reasonable people are saying, “who the hell needs this? I’m gonna go do something else with my time.”

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Yeah. I’m nodding really emphatically if you can see me about the, uh, the school board stuff you were just talking about. And my dad is from Quakertown, so I’m loving all the Bucks County.

Michael Smerconish

Oh! That’s some real cred.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

<laugh>. So as Rob said, I run a nonprofit, nonpartisan group called Civic Genius. And in our research and our programming, we find a lot of common ground among voters on all kinds of different issues. So even really fraught issues, like immigration or policing, I think there’s this under-recognized reality that people across the political spectrum actually agree on a lot. But  we don’t see much airing of that commonality in mainstream media. Why do you think that is?

Michael Smerconish

Because divide sells, you know, speaking of agreement, I don’t think has the panache and drives the passion the way stirring the pot does. There hasn’t been a demonstrable shift on the fundamental issues in this country: immigration, abortion, gun control. We’re pretty much the same place that we’ve ever been. And, there’s a great deal of agreement among Americans. But  you’d never know that from watching television or listening to some of the media outlets. If you, you know, landed here from Mars and turned on television or radio, or looked at the internet, you’d swear that we’re all divided on everything.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Yeah, hear hear to that. Do you think that there is a limit to people’s appetite for this kind of outrage? Or do you think that we’re just headed to this place you were kind of describing earlier, where all of the reasonable school board members and, you know, members of every other legislative body in the country say, “I can’t take this anymore”?

Michael Smerconish

In other words, are you asking, does this pendulum swing?

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Yeah, exactly.

Michael Smerconish

Well, okay. I believe there’s strength in numbers. I believe the number of people unrepresented by the fringe, somewhere from the left-of-center, through the center, to the right-of-center, vastly outnumber those who are on the fringe. But those who are on the fringe, whether it’s left or right, they have a stranglehold on our conversation. They control the microphones, they control the popular websites. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Yeah. I mean, you talk about this stuff a lot. Could you imagine airing a special on American common ground where you talk about, you know, if you’re talking about policing, like there’s huge bipartisan majority support for all of these police reforms, there’s huge bipartisan support for raising the retirement age for social security.  Like, could you even imagine doing a special on something like that?

Michael Smerconish

Not only could I imagine it, that is a show that in different incarnations I have pitched. I mean, that is the kind of show that I would like to host. The problem I think is, and, and by the way, I don’t give up in those efforts. The problem is that I think there’s this media model that has now been constructed, where the audience is so whacked up and compartmentalized… Actually I’ll explain it like this. When I think of the last sort of common TV experience that we’ve had as Americans, apart from the Super Bowl, because that’s one that is just an exception, it’s probably Seinfeld signing off. Maybe I’m dating myself, but I can’t think of a time when really a significant number of Americans gathered around a television set and we all watched the same thing.

It’s because there’s so much out there and we’ve all gone in our separate directions. The internet is a great thing for using OpenTable or ordering an Uber, but it has also facilitated and accelerated our ability to live independent lives.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Yeah. There’s no Elks Club for the internet. 

Michael Smerconish

Correct! People don’t even know what the Elks Club is! I do, but yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

The Incentives for Outrage and Extremism in Congress

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

<laugh> Yeah, it’s so interesting. So could you maybe help our listeners understand why, with all of that in mind, in your view, something like the COVID relief bill passed, and the infrastructure bill passed with votes to spare in both houses, but Build Back Better has gotten bogged down. What do you think is behind that? 

Michael Smerconish

I think there’s, there’s commonality in, to your point earlier, aren’t we all for better roads and bridges and broadband? I think so.  I politically think a mistake was made for the Democrats, trying to get everything done under one umbrella in Build Back Better, and that they would have been better if, if they mean what they say that these component parts are all popular, then they should have pursued them one at a time. But it became something that Fox News just had an easy time kind of sitting back and picking apart, because there was really no one there to defend against it.

 Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Yeah, you know, so we hear about the most extreme, like five or six House members on the right and the left. And then there are other, you know, 400 some <laugh> more legislators in D.C. that I feel like we don’t hear as much about. We don’t hear so much about the centrists, who exist, you know, on the left and to some extent on the right. There’s the Problem Solvers Caucus. There’s the Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress that talks a lot about the need for collegiality, the need for members to, you know, have dinner together and sort of chat after hours like they used to. Do you think that it’s possible to get viewers interested in the House again, as an institution, rather than like this army of robots that’s programmed to say outrageous things?

Michael Smerconish

Unfortunately I think that the favor is to the armed robots, because now, what’s the objective? The objective is to fundraise so that you can run, or fundraise so that you get elected. How do you fundraise? You develop a profile the sooner, the better. How do you develop a profile? You say something outrageous. It would be much more difficult to develop a profile as a reasonable centrist, because what network wants to put you on to say reasonable things? Instead, you know, be a member of the squad, or be Matt Gaetz, or be Marjorie Taylor Greene, because you’re going to get attention. And even if it’s ugly attention, you’ll be able to raise money from it.

None of these people get anything done legislatively, none of them! On the left or the right, the biggest names that you could identify, there’s no legislative achievement that they have to their credit. And yet it doesn’t stop their career advancement. Nobody stops and says, oh, you’re running now for the Senate. Hey, what did you get done in the House?

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Right. Right. Yeah. And now we’re seeing, you know, for decades now we’ve seen moderates being driven out of the being driven out of Congress. And there’s a new round of redistricting that is probably gonna redistrict out some of those moderates.

Michael Smerconish

Well, can I just, can I just, a reminder to everybody that in the 1980s, and this is when I cut my teeth paying close attention, on Ronald Reagan’s watch, 60% of both Houses were moderates. 60%!

Showing a Bit of Purple

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, Michael, the last question we ask all of our guests is to show a bit of purple. That means indicating a Democrat or Republican either now or recently in office in prominence that you particularly respect.

Michael Smerconish

Okay. I’ll give you an easy one, and probably will lose half the audience when I do so. But just top of mind, I wish we had more Joe Manchins and not fewer. I wish we had more who would exhibit some independence and whose vote you didn’t know, simply because of the way in which they were registered. Because imagine if there were just like four or five truly independent United States senators. All of the power would be concentrated in their hands, and not with the party that on registration alone controlled the Senate. I think that’s a better day for the country. That would be my Democrat. 

Republican, I like Adam Kinzinger. I mean, he’s on his way out from the House for all the reasons that we’ve just been discussing, because he probably couldn’t win a primary in his Illinois House district. But I think that Kinzinger is this sort of individual that on the Republican side of the aisle, I mean, you can see where my loyalties lie. I like those who are more independent in their thinking and in their approach. From the great state of Pennsylvania, I mean, Tom Ridge for me. And what a solid citizen Tom Ridge was. I watched him as a Congressman, as a Governor of Pennsylvania, as the nation’s first Secretary of Homeland Security. Ridge is my stripe of Republican. If there were more like Tom Ridge, I’d still be in the GOP.

[Archival Audio – Tom Ridge]

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Yeah. He did a lot of great work recently around election protection.

Michael Smerconish

No doubt. Yep.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Any parting shots or comments or questions?

Michael Smerconish

No, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this. So I appreciate… anybody who’s out there trying to build the center and embolden purple, I’m for. So thank you.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yeah, we’ve lost all our friends on the right and the left, but that’s okay.

Michael Smerconish

<laughs> That’s all right, that’s okay. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

It’s true, so many Twitter followers are gone.

 [Exit Interview]

Robert Pease (co-host)

That was our very special guest today, Michael Smerconish, consoling us on these lonely purple lives we lead. 

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

If only Prince were still with us.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Or a few of those moderate Republicans and Democrats departing Congress because of primary threats and losses, or just plain exhaustion with legislative gridlock.  

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

Michael mentioned a couple of prominent names from his home state of Pennsylvania, including Tom Ridge.

Robert Pease (co-host)

And his mentor, Arlen Specter, a 30-year Senate veteran. He refused to move along with the populist shift of the Republican Party. 

Huge thanks to Michael Smerconish for this master class on recent political history and the media’s role in our polarization. He’s in the guest seat today, but Michael wears many hosting hats, including his radio program on SiriusXM’s POTUS Channel 124 and two podcasts: The Smerconish Podcast and Book Club with Michael Smerconish.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host)

And CNN’s Smerconish airs Saturdays at 9 AM Eastern. One of my favorite CNN interviews is with former Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, on how classroom civics might move us from blind patriotism toward a more reflective and unifying patriotism.

Robert Pease (co-host)

We also highly recommend his interview with House Republican Brian Fitzpatrick and Democrat Josh Gottheimer of the Congressional Problem Solvers Caucus. They’re attempting to “buck the flame-throwing norms” in the U.S. House.

Jillian Youngblood (co-host) 

And next time on the Purple Principle, we will be talking to a recent U.S. House member on his own experiences with partisan flame throwing. Carlos Curbelo was one of the most independent and centrist Republican members of the House from 2015 to 2019, representing Florida’s diverse 26th district.

Robert Pease (co-host)

But despite his aisle-crossing positions on immigration, climate and other key issues, Democrats denied Carlos admission to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.

[Archival Audio – Carlos Curbelo]

Carlos Curbelo

I said earlier that Congress isn’t as bad as it seems. But it’s bad enough where being Hispanic is no longer good enough to be in the Congressional Hispanic caucus.

Robert Pease (co-host)

A lot of great anecdotes and insights forthcoming from the Honorable Carlos Curbelo. We hope you’ll join us for that discussion, support us on Patreon or Apple Premium, and head to ratethispodcast.com/purple to review us in your favorite podcast player. We’re gearing up for a series on state-level polarization, starting with the great state of Texas against the backdrop of the 2022 primaries, and your support is crucial to those episodes.

Thanks for listening to the Purple Principle from the entire team here: Alison Byrne, Senior Producer for Audience Engagement; Kevin A. Kline, Senior Audio Engineer; Michael Falero, Associate Producer; Dom Scarlett and Grant Sharratt, our very able Research Associates, both PhD candidates who, unfortunately for us, need to get back to their own research. Ryan Adair Rooney composes and creates our original music. The Purple Principle is a Fluent Knowledge production.