Will Latinization Bring Moderation?

Part 2 of our series on understanding Hispanic voters

purple principle episode artwork with headshots of podcast guests mike madrid and chuck rocha

How large a role will Hispanic voters play in the 2022 elections and beyond in U.S. politics? (Hint: Huge.) 

How are the major parties appealing to this voting bloc characterized by great diversity politically, economically and via country of origin, language, age, etc?  (Not so effectively.)

And can Latino candidates in both parties help turn the temperature down on our political rhetoric and the affective polarization that dominates elections and civic life? (No sign of that yet.)

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In the second episode of our Hispanic American Swing Voters series, these questions are central to our discussion with veteran political strategists Chuck Rocha, on the Democratic side, and Mike Madrid, on the traditionally conservative, non-Trumpian GOP side. They’ve teamed up to co-host the insightful podcast, The Latino Vote. 

“What’s nice about this podcast is we’re both at an age where we don’t, we don’t care about the parties anymore,” confides Madrid. “We care about our communities first and foremost.”

“I knew Mike because he’d been working in California politics and he’s Latino,”  says Rocha. “I never dreamed we would ever do any work together. But I think Donald Trump brought us together to fight a common enemy.”

Despite anti-immigrant and anti-democracy rhetoric and action, today’s GOP has been picking up Latino candidates and voters in races throughout the country. We discuss that development, and why those races might put forth less extreme rhetoric if more Latino campaign managers familiar with these communities were involved. 

Find out more about the growing Latinization of our elections and body politic with Chuck Rocha and Mike Madrid of The Latino Vote podcast and latinos.vote news aggregation site.  

Original music by Ryan Adair Rooney

That’s Chuck Rocha, veteran Democratic strategist, author of Tío Bernie, a memoir of the Sanders 2020 campaign, and now one half of a great co-hosting duo on The Latino Vote podcast with Mike Madrid.

Mike Madrid

One of the potentials, one of the great promises of what I refer to as the Latinization of America, is a moderation of the rhetoric in our body politic.

Robert Pease (Host)

Mike Madrid is a veteran GOP strategist who has worked to moderate his own party as a co-founder of the Lincoln Project, and in other efforts since leaving that group. I’m Robert Pease, this is the Purple Principle, a podcast about the perils of polarization. And we’re about to be challenged, informed and entertained by this unlikely but engaging cross party partnership.

Mike Madrid

I’ve certainly learned as a professional from Chuck. He’s changed my approach on a lot of the ways I look at campaigns because I now see that certain things are more possible.

Chuck Rocha

I knew Mike, because he’d been working in California politics and he’s Latino, there ain’t but like five of us doing it at this level in either party. So it’s hard not to know of him, right? I never dreamed we would ever do any work together, but I think Donald Trump brought us together and, and to fight a common enemy, and then we were like “Hey man, I kind of like him.” “Hey, I like him.”

Robert Pease (Host)

Let’s get right into it then, starting with Chuck Rocha on the importance of the Latino vote, as diverse and unpredictable as it might be, both for this upcoming election, and the foreseeable future of US politics.

Chuck Rocha

And if you take a snapshot of the house, Rob, there are now, get this ladies and gentlemen, 15 congressional districts in America that are evenly split Democrat-Republican that have over 25% Latino populations.

Robert Pease (Host)

But we’ve also been learning from researching you folks, from many other guests, that there are many axes of diversity within Latino Americans country of origin, generational change, religion, et cetera. Could you tell us a story or two about the diversity that you’ve encountered within this block that we’re calling the Latino vote? Starting with you Mike.

Mike Madrid

Yeah. Um, well geez, I guess every story I have relates to that. It’s a very nuanced community, and, and again, it’s becoming kind of, you know, common knowledge that there’s different countries of origin. There’s obviously the Spanish-English divide. There’s generational divides, which is probably the most significant way to approach Latinos. And you’re seeing impacts in states that we never imagined. You know, just four or five years ago, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Georgia, North Carolina, those are the states where we’re talking about the quote unquote Latino vote a lot more than, you know, the stereotypical Texas, Arizona, California. There’s obviously more nuance happening in those states as they mature, but it’s pressing into literally every state in the country now, and every campaign and both parties are trying desperately to catch up and figure out how to manage and deal with it.

Chuck Rocha

So let me build off of what Mike just said and give it a little different spin. Everything that Mike said is right about how we’re, you know, we’re different countries of origin, we’re different if you’re old or young. Let me tell you something that folks don’t talk about enough, and that is where folks live. Now back in the day when all of us Mexicans, and about 70% of Latinos that come to America are Mexican American or come from Mexican origin, they went to cities like San Antonio, El Paso, L.A., Phoenix, and they lived in the cities with other people had come to those cities. ‘Cause back in the day those cities were where the jobs were. And that’s why the original immigrants who came to America were looking and seeking those jobs. Well, what’s happened is Mike’s described as we have grown, we’ve grown outside the cities. And now we are a big part of rural America in North Carolina, in the suburbs of Georgia, down in New Orleans, outside of New Orleans, in the suburbs of New Orleans where we rebuilt after Katrina. There are these pockets now of Latinos who now don’t live in the city who don’t act like their sisters or cousins in L.A. or in San Antonio, where they came from. Because they started to quote unquote assimilate with that country and rural aspect. So there’s the real divide right there. Hashtag dirt road Democrat over here.

Robert Pease (Host)

All right. Well, that’s great Chuck, and helpful for us to know. But we’re going to turn now to Southern California, which is perhaps a bit closer to you Mike, and to your own experience. We’d like to play this clip from Gustavo Arellano, columnist for the LA Times

[TPP Archival, Gustavo Arellano Interview S3Ep18]

Gustavo Arellano

My family was already mountain people, basically Mexican hillbillies. So he had that conservatism, that independent streak. None of us liked, we didn’t like the Republican party in Southern California or California forever, ‘cause they’re a bunch of racists, xenophobes campaigning against illegal immigration, which so happens to be a lot of my cousins, and a lot of my aunts and uncles and all that. But at the same time, we didn’t like the excesses of progressivism, woke-ism if you will, of the democratic party, so I thought to myself…

Robert Pease (Host)

So are some Latinos, some significant number of Latinos, kind of natural independents, not comfortable in either party?

Mike Madrid

Yeah. In fact, the Latino community in California is the fastest growing segment of not affiliated voters. A very common trajectory is a lot of Latino voters register in the Democratic Party, oftentimes in college campuses or through Democratic Party recruitment processes, become Democrats as a result, and then literally 4, 5, 6 years later go in and, and voluntarily disaffiliate. They’re not becoming Republicans, but they’re removing their party registrations as Democrats and are much more comfortable not being affiliated. And that is really one of the fastest growing dynamics in California’s electorate. Gustavo, and I’m a big fan of Gustavo’s, but however he wants to characterize it, this is not atypical of an immigrant pattern of an assimilative voting pattern and immigrant voting behavior. We saw this very commonly with Italian Americans at the turn of the last century. It was not uncommon in New York, for example, to have an Alfonse D’Amato on the right, and a Governor Cuomo on the left, both proud sons of immigrants; nobody questioned their Italian descendancy because of their party registration. That’s a little bit different with the Mexican American experience because of the political structure that was built. But the point here is, in many, many ways the Mexican American demographic is not comfortable in either party representing them. They are, we are literally charting and creating a new path in American politics.

Chuck Rocha

And Rob, if I could, I, I think that it’s, it’s very personal for me because especially when you start talking about Mexican hillbillies, I feel like it’s my call to action. But, the other piece of that is, is that I was born in rural east Texas. I’ve never been to college. I went to work in a factory when I was 19. I was saved and baptized in a Baptist church. I raised a boy that I had had since he was three months old by myself with my grandmother. So I lived these life experiences and I’m a left wing Democrat, and I’m a left wing Democrat because, uh, and I worked for Bernie Sanders as a senior advisor, I wrote a book about it. Like, the reason I was a Democrat is because they had always taught me that they were with the workers. And then when I got involved in the union, I realized they were with the workers. They were fighting for a 40 hour work week. They were fighting for representation. And those were things that spoke to me. But Rob, you said something that really got to me in a good way, which was this independent streak. Like I have that streak, I love to fight. I love to fight for my folks. I loved being independent. I loved being a quote-unquote rebel growing up, wearing my hair long, people telling me what to do and what not to do. Right? Like I think, and I’m third generation. I’m third generation, Mexican American in Texas and who lives in D.C. now, but I think these things that you’re talking about, Rob, and the things that Mike were talking about is this new evolving, Latino voter category that folks don’t really understand.

Robert Pease (Host)

Let’s turn to Texas, to south Texas, to Tejanos and Dr. Sharon Navarro of UT El Paso. And she’s talking about this change of many Latinos, you know, obviously consistently vote Democratic Mike as you’ve pointed out, but there is this change, this increase in GOP support in south Texas. And she’s trying to help us understand why that is.

[TPP Archival, Dr. Sharon Navarro Interview S3E9]

Sharon Navarro

Yes, we saw that take place with Donald Trump. Latinos were aware of his immigration stance, the way he portrayed immigrants or some Hispanics, but they understood the economic side of the Republican Party. They were hurting from the COVID pandemic shutdowns. And when you talk about Latinos in south Texas, Rio Grande Valley, along the Texas-Mexico border, the federal government is one of the largest recruiters in that area. A lot of Latinos are employed by border patrol, customs agents, and so when you hear the opposite political party talk about abolishing the border patrol, you’re talking about their livelihoods. So, the Republican Party, aside from all their extreme rhetoric, talks about the bread and butter issues that matter more to Latinos. And they’re able to filter through those types of discussions.

Robert Pease (Host)

Yeah. So Chuck, more, more a question for you at least initially. What do you think of Dr. Navarro’s observation that a lot of Tejanos are able to ignore the extreme rhetoric because their focus is on economic issues?

Chuck Rocha

Guess what? A lot of Mexicans being employed by the border patrol ain’t something that just started happening. It’s been happening since they were bidding higher down there because most of the folks in the valley are Mexican American descent. What’s changed is the visceralness of our politics. And what you had down there forever was these, all these border counties were registered at, that means 90% of the folks, 80% of the folks were registered as Democrats. They still are today, but over the last few years, they’ve started having an alternative. They started voting for Republicans, whether, me and Mike talk about this ad nauseam on the podcast about why. There’s not just one thing, but there’s a number of things. The bottom line is that there’s a whole group of working class individuals down there that the Democratic Party, my party, kind of walked past for a long time, just took for granted they were gonna vote Democrats cause they always had. And Republicans never went down there and spent a dime because they were like, “those Mexicans are all Democrats, let’s not waste any money.” Well, what happened was, is the Republicans almost in spite of themselves started showing up and spending some money, opened up little offices. The Libre Initiative went down there and opened up an office. And then Democrats were like, “Oh my God, Republicans are down here. Maybe we should start.” And so now there’s a real competition for that vote.

Robert Pease (Host)

We’ve been talking with Chuck Rocha and Mike Madrid, veteran strategists from opposing political parties who’ve teamed up to co-host The Latino Vote podcast and launch the news aggregation site latinos.vote. But in addition to the great importance of the Latino vote, we’ve also learned there’s great diversity within Latino communities. Differences by country of origin, preferred language, generation–meaning not just young or old, but first or second or third generation since immigration. All major factors challenging both major parties, causing them to refine their messaging and increase their efforts for that crucial Latino vote. That includes a record number of Latino candidates in pivotal races throughout the country, though perhaps most notably in California and Texas. Is the rhetoric between Latino candidates in these races any less extreme than in recent elections? Let’s hear first from Mike Madrid.

Mike Madrid

Yeah. Well, I’m not sure the question was phrased exactly right, at least the way I see it. It’s not that they’re ignoring the rhetoric, they’re embracing and leaning into the rhetoric. If you look at Mayra Flores, who was elected in this special election, there’s two things you really, I think, need to look at. One is that she’s married to a border patrol agent. The second is a lot of the Evangelical churches. The rise of the Evangelical Christian movement is really manifesting itself in the Latino community. And so that base of Republican support in the Latino community is oftentimes tied to law enforcement, military service, which is oftentimes why crime issues are so resonant, but it’s also to an even greater degree tied to Evangelical Christianity, and the growth of Evangelical Christianity in Latino communities.

Robert Pease (Host)

Yeah. Well maybe we could talk about some of these races. You know, I think a lot of us who bemoan the tribalism of our politics had hoped that in these races of Latino candidates, Latina versus Latina, in the case of Flores and Gonzalez, uh, Cruz and Vallejo, Garcia, we had hoped that the rhetoric might not be so intense.

Chuck Rocha

Look, I’ll touch on this. And the rhetoric is more hot than it has ever been. I make TV commercials for a living. I make mail pieces for a living. I make digital ads for a living. And I can tell you everything that I’m writing is trying to match what they’re doing, and it’s the ugliest I’ve ever seen it in my 32-year career. There’s a big piece of this Rob though, that we’re not talking about, which is, I think one of the reasons that we’re in the position that we’re in, and me and Mike talk about this a lot on the podcast. Of all of those races that I mentioned, where there’s Latinos making up over 20% of the electorate, Rob, there’s not one single Latino or Latina campaign manager, and there’s not one single Latino or Latina majority owned media and messaging firm working for any of these folks. And that’s what I think is the biggest Achilles heel for Democrats. We have had an evolution of political consultants and operatives who have done good work through Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, and those folks go make lots of money, but there’s not a lot of brown folks or black folks for that matter that are running these big messaging and operational firms that are doing these races at a big level. And I believe you really are losing something to the connectivity on the ground.

Mike Madrid

Yeah, so. And so what Chuck is saying is very important, is that the language that we employ, is oftentimes I think problematic because of the people, the paid people that are employing it. They’re using the tools that they know and that they have used and are sharpening the tools even tighter, sharper, at a time when the fastest growing segment of the electorate is probably more amenable to a less partisan message.

Robert Pease (Host)

We realize that immigration is not the issue for, you know, all Hispanic voters, all generations especially, but we did wanna talk about it a bit and we wanted to play a clip from Will Hurd who represented south Texas for three terms. He’s written a great book, American Reboot and was on the show a short while ago. And based on his experience, you know, both in government, in the CIA, and as a Congress member, how he thinks we might solve the immigration problem.

[TPP Archive, Will Hurd Interview S3E6]

Will Hurd

Look at the place we are right now. We have a real crisis on our Southern border. The amount of illegal immigration, the amount of drugs that are coming into our country is the highest it’s ever been. And so streamlining legal immigration would help reduce some of that pressure that we’re seeing on the border. When you look at every industry, needs workers. Every industry is looking to hire, guess what, you know, streamlining legal immigration would help with that problem. If Florida needs agriculture workers and Texas needs hospitality workers, that should be based on a need, the technology exists to do this, and then we can increase the number of those kinds of working visas, you know, based on that need in that particular location, that particular state. It’s that simple.

Robert Pease (Host)

Yeah. Well, I wish it were that simple politically. Maybe it’s that simple as a policy formulation, but um, in your experience talking to, you know, many candidates and office holders and citizens about the immigration issue, what do you think of the potential for opening up legal immigration?

Mike Madrid

Well, I could tell you what I believe having worked on those issues since 2000, the year 2000. I appreciate the congressman’s sentiment, the truth of the matter is the policy actually is very simple. It is very easy. Politics get complicated for one simple truth. Both parties are equally complicit and not fixing the problem because they’re both vested in the problem continuing. Most people might be shocked by that, say, well I thought it was just Republicans doing that. No, absolutely not. The Democrats don’t want this problem fixed either because this energizes their base. It’s one of the crucial political tools that they have to run against Republicans on with the Latino electorate. And neither of them want this solved. So look, if either party wanted this solved, there have been plenty of times in the course of the past two decades when that could have been done including this year. If the Democrats wanted this done, if they genuinely wanted it done, they could have gotten it done in 2022. If they genuinely wanted it done, they could have gotten it in 2009, when they controlled the Senate and the House and had Barack Obama in the White House. They don’t do it, they haven’t done it, and with Republicans it’s the exact same in the reverse. So the policy solutions are actually very, very simple for immigration reform. It is a matter of levels, but as the Congressman correctly articulated, the economy is beginning to suffer now. It’s not just that companies need workers. It’s the aging tax base in this country. As Boomers are retiring and start requiring more services, the way we’re gonna pay for Medicare, Medicaid and pay for Social Security is only going to be through young, largely blue collar workers. Those are immigrants. America not only needs immigrants as a moral imperative, we need it to prevent the collapse of our tax base. And we need a lot more immigration, not a little bit, we need a lot more. And that’s the challenge that we face is the political parties, both of them benefit. They both benefit politically by not fixing the problem.

Robert Pease (Host)

Yeah. Chuck, would you agree with that? That, uh, both parties kind of like the issue?

Chuck Rocha

I’d disagree with Mike here. I do think that my party has not done everything that they could have done. I’ll agree with that. But I would also say that you can’t compare a Democrat to a Republican on this issue. If immigration was like it was in this country 50 years ago, where you paid a hundred bucks and you came across and you signed in and you did your thing, we would have all the workers we need. Our economy would be roaring, just like the Congressman said a while ago, ‘cause there is no place in America where there’s not a help wanted sign right now. And people dying and walking across 600 miles of desert to get to a beacon of freedom, which is the United States of freaking America. And people need to keep that in mind. So don’t come at me with this stuff about, we should come legally. The system is so broken it takes 10 years if you try to come in legally and cost around $4,000 with poor people who are walking across deserts and risking their lives to save their children from gang members and violence in their country to come to a place that’s got a statue in the New York Harbor that says, “send me your most vulnerable people, ‘cause we’ll take care of ’em right here.” And that’s how we’ve built this country. So there is a lot more intestinal fortitude that needs to happen. And when you tie this to politics, listen to me Democrats, Republicans, Independents, this is why you need Latino consultants, ‘cause they would tell you that immigration is not the most important issue, but it is the most emotional issue.

Robert Pease (Host)

Yeah, well it’s not only a divisive issue here. It’s certainly very divisive, uh, in other countries. I believe, uh, the right wing just benefited from it a bit in Sweden. Um, but um, I do wanna also give you guys time to talk about some of your projects. We’re certainly interested in hearing some of the more interesting moments on your podcast. Have you ever changed each other’s minds on anything?

Mike Madrid

Uh, yeah.

Chuck Rocha

[laugh] Go ahead Mike. Tell them about how much smarter I made you.

Mike Madrid

Yeah, I, look, the way I met Chuck was because, and I, I knew who he was before we met before I reached out to him and, and said, “Hey, you know, you, you seem like a pretty, pretty good operator. I think we could benefit from learning from each other.” Chuck was doing things in terms of turning out and engaging Latino voters that had never been done before. And I think what’s nice about this podcast is we’re both at an age where we don’t care about the parties anymore. We care about our communities first and foremost, and we will be critical of our party and its leadership when they’re not doing the right thing for the community.

Chuck Rocha

And I would build off of that and say that, you know [laugh] I knew of Mike, obviously he worked at The Lincoln Project. I knew Mike because he’d been working in California politics and he’s Latino, there ain’t but like five of us doing it at this level in either party. And then I was like, he made me realize that that’s why I was a good consultant. It wasn’t that I was Mexican or Latino, but that I had lived the experiences of non-college educated males who are frustrated, ‘cause I’m that non-college educated male that’s frustrated as hell looking for somebody, begging somebody to help me fix my problems. And I would’ve never, would’ve never known that power if I hadn’t have done this podcast with Mike Madrid. And for all of you listening, the new things that we have out now is we have a great new website where our podcasts live that has an aggregate of all the Latino vote news in America, in one website. Every morning at 7 00 a.m. we aggregate the website with every article, no matter who’s writing it, as long as it’s factual. And we put it in an aggregate, it’s called latinos.vote. It doesn’t have an org or a dot com. I thought it was fake too, but it ain’t, it’s latinos.vote.

Robert Pease (Host)

Well, that’s a great resource. We will definitely link to that in our show notes and in our blogs going forward. We do want to ask one last question. We ask all our guests to show a bit of purple; Chuck, in your case, that’s naming a Republican candidate or elected official currently in recent memory who you felt was less tribal, less partisan, more of a transcendent figure. And Mike, you do the same for a Democrat.

Chuck Rocha

That’s become harder in my opinion. You know, I remember back when I was at the union, I worked for the steelworkers union way back in the day. And there was this congressman from, uh, Buffalo, New York. Mikey may have to help me out. I, I think his name was, uh, um, Jack Keys–

Robert Pease (Host)

–Jack Kemp?

Chuck Rocha

But I–Hemp, oh, maybe Kemp–

Robert Pease (Host)

Yeah, yeah.

Chuck Rocha

Yeah.

Robert Pease (Host)

Yeah, free enterprise zones. Right?

Chuck Rocha

Well, he would give us a labor vote. Right? All of that stuff. And that was good for the union and good for workers, right? And so that was the first time I was like, “oh, all Republicans ain’t crazy, like this guy’s talking about workers in unions and zones that’ll help workers.” And so, that’s the first time instead of the most recent example of when as a non, a guy who never went to college who didn’t know nothing, I was like “oh, there’s Republicans who I think are not that bad,” before I met Mike Madrid and realized there are some that are really smart too.

[Archival, Jack Kemp giving remarks to Hudson Union Society]

Jack Kemp

…that the Republican Party should go back to its roots in the Lincoln, Frederick Douglas mode of an open party, open to black and white and brown. Lincoln was the author of the Homestead Act which gave immigrant Americans 160 acres of land free and clear, and title, in 1862 in Illinois and Ohio and Indiana and other states to the west, if they did two things live on it and improve it. I learned at HUD, you don’t need to tell people to improve that which they own.

Mike Madrid

Yeah, Jack Kemp is my political hero. He’s actually one of the reasons I got involved in politics. I’m a proud Jack Kemp Republican because of his commitment to the poor, his commitments to working class communities. And argue with his policies one way or the other, you can’t argue with Jack Kemp’s heart and, and what he did with his life and who he was trying to help. His political life is the life that I try to emulate.

Robert Pease (Host)

Yeah. And is there any Democrat who you see, you know, sort of effectively reaching across the aisle either now or in recent history?

Mike Madrid

I could name a litany of Democrats that I’ve worked with and really liked in the past. Antonio Villaraigosa ran his campaign for governor against uh Gavin Newsom here in California, a direct appeal. He hired a Republican to run his campaign for goodness sake for Governor of California, um, made direct appeals to the Republican electorate with precisely that message and independents.

Chuck Rocha

And I think in that same San Fernando Valley that he’s talking about, I would highlight Congressman Tony Cárdenas. Tony is both a pro-union and pro-business Democrat, and he is always looking for solutions reaching across the aisle. He was a real estate agent. He has a degree, where Alex, him and Alex Padilla, the Senator were, uh, colleagues going back in the day and they both got engineering degrees. Like they’re highly educated folks looking for solutions and who, whichever party can fix some of the broken things that they see in their community, I see Alex Padilla

[Archival, Alex Padilla interview by KCET]

Alex Padilla

Doing well in school, getting a good education was the, uh, the ticket to a better future. I can’t tell you how many times my dad would interrupt me when I was doing my homework and he would tell, this was I think, his way of expressing his fatigue, he would say “Hijo, cuando crezcas quiero que trabajes con tu mente y no con tu espalda.” He would say, “I want you to work with your mind, not with your back.” I think there’s a lot of dignity and honor in manual labor, but that was his way of saying he wanted better for us.

Mike Madrid

Alex Padilla, especially, I think you’re gonna see in the coming years. He’s going to be a profound driver of change in this country, but also in the institution of, as the United States Senate is, because of his ability to work across party, um, lines. He did that demonstrably in the state senate here. I’ve known him since he was the President of the Los Angeles City Council. I think he’s a great suggestion for that and for people to watch.

Robert Pease (Host)

Mike Madrid there, veteran GOP strategist, formerly of the pro-democracy, GOP watchdog group The Lincoln Project. And before him Chuck Rocha, Democratic strategist and author of Tio Bernie. They’re co-hosts of the Latino Vote podcast which we highly recommend as an important resource going forward this election year and after. Chuck and Mike have underscored today the pivotal role Latino voters will play in not just the 2022 elections, but US elections going forward nationally and in our most pivotal swing states. But the diversity of that vote means it’s not so much a single bloc of Latino votes but loosely connected blocs spread throughout the country, some with their own political and economic concerns. More on that in our next episode, the finale to this Hispanic Swing Voter series with the Northwestern University Scholar Geraldo Cadava. He argues that due to this great diversity, the Latino voting bloc is a myth, and not a very helpful one

Geraldo Cadava

Latinos are staunch anti-communists because they fled from left-leaning governments in Latin America. They all have an immigrant or immigration narrative… So any of these kind of oversimplified statements about who Latinos are, I mean, forgetting, setting aside the issue of whether or not Latinos are in fact, a particular group or bloc of voters, I would want to complicate that narrative a little bit by talking about what individuals’ beliefs and motivations are.

Robert Pease (Host)

We hope you’ll tune into that episode and consider supporting us on Patreon or Apple Subscriptions where you get bonus content, such as sneak peeks or sneak listens to future episodes, and full length interviews, such as with former Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick. Thanks for listening from the whole Purple Principle team, which is a Fluent Knowledge production. Original music by Ryan Adair Rooney.